American Morning
Bush-era memos vindicate Abu Ghraib soldiers?
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/04/30/intv.karpinski.art.jpg caption= "Former Brigadier General Janis Karpinski says the Bush-era interrogation memos cast doubt on convicted Abu Ghraib soldiers."]
Interrogation tactics such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation and forced nudity did not violate laws against torture when there was no intent to cause severe pain, according to the Bush-era memos on the tactics released by the Obama administration April 16th.
A Senate report declassified last week says senior Bush administration officials authorized the aggressive interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists, despite concerns from military psychologists and attorneys.
But when the Abu Ghraib prison scandal broke in 2004, it was soldiers and officers who took the blame, including the prison’s commander, former Brigadier General Janis Karpinski. She was demoted to colonel over the scandal. Karpinski joined John Roberts on CNN’s “American Morning” Thursday.
John Roberts: You read these memos, I assume, when they were released by the Obama administration. What did you think when you were reading them?
Janis Karpinski: I was shocked. And then I felt this sense of exhilaration or relief. Finally, finally, finally - I did a lot of talking back to my computer screen as I was reading them. And I immediately felt sympathy again for the soldiers who were blamed and accused and imprisoned. Remember, they were all packaged up as seven bad apples out of control on the night shift. Where were the people who were defending these decisions, these memorandums then? Why weren't they intervening? They let these soldiers go to prison for these accusations.
Roberts: You felt vindication when you read these memos? What was the thought here? That this type of behavior was authorized so why are people being prosecuted for it?
Karpinski: For five years, I was repeating the truth - the truth is easy to repeat because it's the same truth over and over again. So from the beginning, I knew that I didn't know anything about this. I knew I was being kept from having any information. And five years later to discover they had the information all along, very, very troubling; very disappointing.
Roberts: So, these memos detail a number of tactics that the Justice Department believed were allowable. But when you look at the photos that came out of Abu Ghraib and you see naked prisoners stacked up like a cord of wood with the service members laughing about it. The fellow on the box with the hood over his head and the blanket draped over him and the wires attached to his fingers to suggest to him that he could have been executed through electricity. None of that was in the memo. Did these soldiers here at Abu Ghraib go well beyond what the Justice Department said was allowable?
Karpinski: The soldiers at Abu Ghraib were receiving instructions from people who obviously had experience at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or Bagram Air Force Base, or somewhere in between. The people who were giving them those orders or those instructions certainly had access to, if not directly to, the memorandums. They understood the permissions given to them in those memorandums. And, in some cases, you look at the memorandums, you look at the photographs that were kind of hand-drawn to support the instructions in those memorandums, then you see in living-color in a photograph taken from Abu Ghraib what those memorandums produced. So five years ago I believed, and now I really believe, from those memorandums, the administration, the people in the Pentagon, the people in the White House, the top level of our government, they were terrified because these photographs were the photographic evidence of what the memorandums were saying.
Roberts: What do you think should happen as a result of this, particularly to the soldiers who were convicted and put in jail?
Karpinski: Well, five years. Give them their lives back. Revoke the accusations. Certainly release the last soldier remaining in prison. Release him.
Roberts: Do they deserve a presidential pardon?
Karpinski: They do. And they deserve to have all of the convictions overturned. They deserve certainly to have their discharges dishonorable or bad conduct discharges overturned.
Roberts: And what about you? You were brigadier general in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison, demoted to colonel because of that. A lot of ramifications on your career, pensions, and things like that. Will you seek recompense from the Pentagon?
Karpinski: Well, I will if nothing is done automatically. But as a result of this, they owe this to each one of us. Give it back to us because these mistakes have now been exposed.
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"When will everybody stop using the term “enhanced interrogation techniques” and call it what it is — torture."
Waterboarding is not torture!
Having your eyes gouged out is torture. Having bits yourself burned off is torture. Having your arms and legs broken is torture. And so on to a vast number of things I won't describe here.
The defining characteristic of real torture is that it leaves the victim desperate to die–but unable to. It's a condition so horrifying that Galileo, in the seventeenth century, gladly accepted a sentence of what amounted life in prison after having been merely shown the torturer's equipment.
Read a little of the techniques of the Spanish Inquisition before you start running around yelling "torure!"
Karpinski should not use the memos as justification for what occurred. With or without the memos a Brigadier General should realize that this was torture. If she does not realize this was torture, then it shows her advancement through the ranks was most likely due to her sex and not her qualifications. She had to have been a paper pusher her whole career and I would say lacks the true qualifictions to lead troops in war.
The troops also knew what they were doing was wrong, but they enjoyed humiliating others. This is no different then college hazing – the people know it is wrong, but as a group activity justify it.
The was a failure of leadership here. Either the command looked the other way and didn't know what was going on – or – observed it and condoned it by failing to act. What were these Soldiers punished for? If what they did was within the scope of the 'Bush/Chenney letters' than all charges should be reversed and an appology issued.
If the current administration says waterboarding is illegal, then someone needs to go to trial or receive a presidental pardon.
I spent 20 years of my life defending this country with no regrets and would do it again in a heart beat. What the Bush Administration did was wrong and everyone of these soilders should have their convictions overturned and be compensated for this injustice. The Colonel shows the highest form of dedication by still supporting the troops she served. Those of you that still wish to persecute them need to know only one thing. They were doing exactly as they claimed all along "Following Orders" For those of you that claim to be from the military you know, "First follow orders, then question."
Military leadership today is pathetic. It nolonger knows how to take the "hard right" over the "easy wrong." I am happy to see these soldiers vindicated. Karpinski needs to get her General rank returned, and all those imprisoned soldiers, released, and if not re-instated AND promoted because of missed time in service, they should all receive a comprehensive severence package.
What alot of people are missing who are pointing the blame about certain rules to torture and conventions. And about the troops taking pictures. Is that the reason Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld didn't put MP's in place to run those interogations is because they didn't want anyone questioning what they were doing. These soldiers were tried by the military uniformed code of conduct. I'm sure RESERVIST. Didn't pay much attention to the part where your allowed to question a superiors ordes if it breaks the Geneva convention or you could be held accountable for breaking a superiors orders if it breaks the convention. HOW CAN BUSH/CHENEY/RUMSFELD. Get in front of people and say they love our troops. AND THEN KNOWINGLY SEEN THEM TO PRISON FOR FOLLOWING ORDERS. OR MAKING THEM PAY BACK THEIR PAY FOR A YEAR. THIS IS DISGRACEFUL.
Bush and Cheney should be tried as war criminals. Plain and simple.
General Karpinski was in a no-win situation. If she had defied orders, she would have been sacked and disgraced. By following her orders, she was sacked and disgraced. In either case, she would have been fighting to get back what was taken away from her. That is not justification for "just following orders," but it's easy to see that she was painted into a corner by the Bush Administration. As for the soldiers, I always felt that they were the sacrificial scapegoats. They weren't completely innocent, but the fact that the buck stopped primarily with them was a disgrace. As bad as I feel for General Karpinski, I feel worse for the soldiers. Their punishment was more severe. I don't feel that they were more culpable. On the other hand, the people who were ultimately responsible were never called into the light of day. I don't believe in witch hunts any more than anyone else, but the masterminds of these crimes against humanity need to be held accountable. If we fail to recognize the wrong here, we will have truly abdicated any right to speak for the humane treatment of soldiers.
What I find funny in the first place is while Al-Qaida goes around chopping peoples heads off, bombing public places, we're reprimanding soldiers for torturing terrorists to get info out of them.
These soldiers were never given direct orders to torture the prisoners so they were not following "order". They were following "suggestions" made by civilian contractors and enjoying it. That is why they stay in jail and get no pardons – the col. should be thankful she isn't in jail too.
The Bush White House is responsible for this, not Janice Karpinski, or Lynndie England.
Mr. Bush lied when he said that "America does not torture".
He knew we were torturing.
What this former general had to say really rammed the point home for me.
Several years ago, the folks behind these memos condemned the "bad apples" following their orders. That's as close to a confession as it's going to get.
It's great to see a general attempting to stand up for her soldiers even after they have been out of the Army for years. Unfortunately for the general, her soldiers were MPs, not interrogators. They were abusing detainees for entertainment and not as part of an interrogation plan to gather intelligence. These memos would not have applied to her troops.
I am not aware of all actions taken in the prison. However as a 30 year military NCO, I feel we need to do, without permanent damage to the prisoners, what we have to in order to attempt to stop our folks from being mamed and killed. The folks so much against this type of "torture" should be able to look at photos of their relatives after being attacked and killed and be able to be subjected to the dangers our sons and daughters in uniform are subjected to daily. "GET REAL".
I will not go into the subject of: we should not be there-what type of folks we had in charge to allow our military members including the one star demoted to be found guilty of doing what we needed to do- Clean up the mess-put the blame where it belongs and keep keeping on!!!
General Karpinski should have been court matialed for the incident. The prior convictios should stand as they are and any other leaders of the soldiers should also be court martialed. As a leader in the military it is your job to know what is going on. Saying "Well I didn't know" is a failure on her part. She failed her subordinates and so she should face punishment along with them. When I was in the army, as a leader I accepted full responsibilty for my troops. It was my job to insure that they knew what they were doing, how to do it correctly and within regulation. If my soldiers were unaware of their responsibilities I failed them.
Wrong Col. Karpinski.
In my military career I have had to refuse illegal orders on two occasions. I took the hit and kept on going. An illegal order is still illegal no matter who gives it... the president or a captain. You or any of your peers could have stepped up and said NO!.
"They were just following orders."
Very nice.
She was the commander. NO matter what the orders, she was responsible. To blame others for what happened under her command is pathetic. She;s worthless as a leader. She never checked on her troops. Now she feels vindicated? After her book deal? And her soldiers in jail? What army was she in?
Janis Karpinski was a soldier doing her duty as required by her commanders. It is obvious that she disagreed but followed orders. She and the people under her command who carried out orders that they disagreed with should be pardoned. Soldiers who took too much glee in the tortures should not be forgiven. It might be hard to determine which pardons are required but the effort should be made.
Wrongs aren't wrong when they're done by Good People such as ourselves.
First, she isn't a General, she's a Colonel, having been demoted for her disgustingly poor leadership.
Second, the memos authorized CIA operatives to use enhanced interrogation methods, they did not authorize dirtbags like Lindy England, or other young Army privates to stack naked Iraqi men into piles or to put them on dog leashes.
The fact that Colonel Karpinski thinks these memos were addressed to her rogue troops (whom she never supervised at 2AM) is the reason she was demoted. She is a disgusting person and shame on CNN for giving her air time.
Always knew the CIA and other entities had a hand in this and yet no one stood up for the regular soldier, no one they were just left out to dry on their own.
Why are you giving airtime to this woman? She didn't get in trouble because of improper interrogation. She got in trouble because her leadership was so abysmal that she allowed people like Lynndie England and her boyfriend to run roughshod over basic human decency. The pictures of naked prisoners stacked up or performing simulated sex acts aren't images of improper interrogation – they are proof that the situation at Abu Ghraib was so out of control that even the smallest of small fries were taking liberties with other human beings. Col (ret) Karpinski should be happy she didn't get bounced out of the Army with a dishonorable discharge.
follow this story, it will lead back to high ranking politicians with big pensions who covered this up. You know destroyed peoples lives to protect criminal activity, cloaked as patrioism. Like Watergate! You remenber that!
Janis Karpinski exemplifies the type of soldier that should be demoted and drummed out of the service. She was a brigadier general, which is far too high of a rank to use "I was just following orders" as an excuse... and any soldier that tries to defend the use of the torture described in the memos spits in the face of the numerous service men who were subject to the same abuses by our enemies in previous wars; enemies that we rightly labled as criminals because of such actions. She should have been keeping her own house in order when she was in charge, and now that the memos have come to light, she shouldn't be demanding clemency, she should be apologizing for her and her mens' behavior, and demanding that everyone implicated in the memos face the same level of scrutiny and punishment as she and her men did. That would be the honorable thing to do.
I think these soldiers should have all charges dropped. You can't give them back 5 yrs of their lives but you can give them back their respect. The lower enlisted soldiers were only following guidance given by their chain-of-command. Let's see if Obama will give these pardons.
As a retired member of the armed forces, I saw this whole blame game against Brigadier General Karpinski and the troops that were ultimately convicted by the press as a travesty of justice of the worst kind. These soldiers were doing their jobs and exploited by these Other Government Agencies (OGA's) to take the fall for their brutal tactics. General Karpinski was kept in the dark about what was happening and the soldiers working at Abu Ghraib were forced to work under horrible conditions or face court martial for dereliction of duty. These soldiers should be granted full pardons immediately and along with General Karpinski deserve a public apology along with an immediate return to former rank and all the privileges deserved by True American Hero’s. I never stopped believing in you and your troops General and God Speed in all your future endeavors. The real cowards above and beyond the pay grade of General Karpinski that remained quiet and hung these soldiers out to be scrutinized by the world deserve to be in jail. Now that the truth is out, they should be prosecuted and held accountable for their actions. Let them be publically shamed for disgracing the United States Military in the face of the World!
This woman just does not get it. Soldiers under her watch tortured detainees. In no way does this memo justify what her soldiers did as GUARDS. Guards are there to guard the prisoners not to carry out interrogation techniques. Maybe if she had did her job correctly there would have been a clear cut line between the roles of guards and interrogators. They should take another rank away from her for even making these comments.
BG Karpinski is wrong now as she was when the scandal first broke. Her answers here even fail to link anyone in Abu Gahrib with the memos (she says "had access to" and mentions all these different places people may have come from). But worst of all is no one is stating the obvious. She and her soldiers were running a prison. They were not interagating the prisoners. The photos were of prison guards doing stupid things – a unit that was out of control. A great article was written a few months after the scandal broke about how this unit was so undisciplined before even getting to Abu Gahrib that you could have predicted they had trouble. The memo speaks of water boarding – the photos are of stupid soldiers posing with naked prisoners – not conducting interrogations. BG Karpinski should be ashamed for continuing to shirk her responsibility as a commander – she failed to keep her soldiers in line and the United States suffered gravely because of it.
Former Bush administration scoundrels are all over the media airwaves telling anyone and everyone who will listen, how proud they are of their torture record and that the current administration's respect for the rule of law when dealing with torture is all wrong.
Where was this current unmitigated bravado and pride at the time of Abu Ghraib? They did not vouch for their own actions they condoned, and then engineered others to take the fall. Cowards!
Just one of the innumerable examples of why the Bush administration will live in infamy.
How could this woman feel that the torture memos are some sort of vindication for her or any other soldiers involved in Abu Ghraib?!? What lack of remorse and disregard for human dignity! What an insult to any common person's sense of morality and justice! Her comments are outrageous!
In no way do the those legal opinion memos excuse the kind of savage brutality that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Threatening inmates with dogs? Forming human pyramids of naked, hooded prisoners? Telling an inmate that they will be electrocuted if they lower their arms? Killing some inmates, and taking pictures of gleeful soldiers above the corpses of the inmates? That is beyond criminal; that is subhuman.
To attempt to spin those legal opinion memos as a defense against becoming animals and losing all respect for human life adds insult to injury. How could any person with any morality whatsoever not be haunted and deeply sorry to the point of begging for mercy after having done what she and those other soldiers have done?
Pension? She should be in prison right now! What happened at Abu Ghraib was horrifying and evil. No legal opinion can provide forgiveness for her and those other soldiers...
Gen. Karpinski,
I know that it isn't my position to apologize for their actions, but I want you and the soldiers under your command to know that I'm sorry for what happened. I would join you in demanding recognition and reparation for the wrong-doing that has happened to you as well as a probe to determine who allowed you all to be thrown under the bus like that. Is this the message that U.S. military commanders wants to send to the potential new recruit?
So, are these post mortum excuses for abuse the same as the German solders in WW2 who killed American POWs and slaughtered Jews and Poles in the Death Camps ? Lt. Calley et al. Since when is the "standard" to be......" with intent to cause.... " ? Did that apply when we put German solders on trial ? What is the "intent" of waterboarding ?
COLONEL Karpinski refuses to accept responsbility for what is so clearly her leadership failure, an embarassment to the military, and a setback for operations in Iraq. Clearly, she had no idea what was going on in her "command" (I use the term loosely) – if these processes and procedures were acceptable, then why were the actions only taken by a few and isolated to one small group under her command? I am very confident that no one authorized your preganant (yet another one of your leadership failures – how does that happen??) soldier to put a dog's leash on anyone. Further, why, if this was acceptable, was one of your soldiers so offended that he felt like he needed to send his photos outside of the command? Clearly he did not have confidence in you or your subordinate leaders. Make whatever hollow argument you want COLONEL Karpinski – you deserved everything that happened to you as did those soldiers; the thought of realeasing them from prison is foul and disgraceful. As for you, if you did not want the responsiblity, then you should have stayed home and retired a lot sooner. We are trained to know what is morally and ethically right – the VAST MAJORITY of soliders, sailors, airmen, and Marines are not taking these actions, therefore it is clearly wrong and should have been recognized as such. If you would have gone out and visited your COMMAND at night, during the day, and conducted inspections, you would have known this was happening and you could have stopped it. You failed and they failed – I wonder how many lives were lost due to retaliation from Iraqis for these crimes? Would the Awakening have occurred sooner if this had not happened? You bear that burden.
I do not for a moment defend the appalling conduct of Bush administration officials, but then-General Karpinksi was in command of a prison, in a Muslim country that our country was occupying. She was in a position to know how those photographs, or reports of such treatment, would be perceived by the population. Many surveys suggest that they are the single most powerful recruiting tool for Al Queda in Iraq and other extremists who target American soldiers. Colonel Karpinksi had a responsibility to object, loudly and repeatedly, to conduct that has very likely led to the deaths of Americans. If CIA contractors or other out-of -control military interrogators were violating the chain of command in her prison, she should have stepped in to stop it. Other soldiers, including military lawyers and other interrogators, put their careers at risk to publicly object to this conduct. Karpinski began complaining when she was targeted in the investigation.
Karpinski is a scapegoat, as were the soldiers under her command, but that doesn't mean that she has no responsibility for what occurred under her watch. There is no defense for "stacking prisoners up like cord wood" or rigging someone for electrocution. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation, let alone see proof of what Karpinski did to respond to events that occurred on her watch.
Karpinski is right that her soldiers had a right to use those memos in their defense, as possible mitigating evidence. But unless she's claiming that SHE was instructed to treat prisoners this way, I'm not clear how the memos mitigate her own conduct.
Legally, She is right. Even President Obama said that the ones carrying out the "torture" should not be prosecuted. But, morally, the seven soldiers, plus their higher ups, should serve their full sentences. Why? Because these seven very obviously enjoyed what they did.
I don't care of the soldiers had the Bush administration's blessing for what they did or not, they all lacked any sense of decency. They are a disgusting, brutish lot who deserve the punishment they got. If they had had any conscience they would have refused to participate in such shameful behavior. They all lack a sense of humanity. Instead of setting the soldiers free, the Attorney General should set his prosecutorial sights on Cheney, Rumsfeld and every other Bush lackey–including Bush himself!
So COL Karpinski feels vidicated? I read her book and all through the book she claimed what she repeated here, that she didn't know what was going on, it wasn't her fault, LTG Sanchez wouldn't talk to her etc. I am sure when that star was pinned on COL Karpinski's collar she was quite proud of herself. Well COL, that star meant you were a leader and had responsibility for a lot of things, not the least of which was the troops under your command. If you didn't know about something in your command, it is your duty to find out. The things your soldiers were doing at Abu Ghraib were reprehensible and claiming that the torture memos condoned and allowed such behavior is like the old Nuremberg defense; "I was just following orders." You do have three things in common with your old boss Ric Sanchez, you were both promoted far beyond your level of competence and ability, you were both promoted for reasons other than your abilities to lead and you both whined and cried when you realized there were consequences for your blatant leadership failures. I guess insight isn't your strong suit along with a profound lack of leadership abilty. Please crawl back into retirement and obscurity and quit embarrasing yourself.
This is garbage. The soldiers are guilty of the crimes they were convicted of. The legal precedent here is clear: you don't get off the hook for "just following orders."
As a National Guardsman on my third deployment I am simply stunned at the former General's lack of insight into her illegal activities. Illegal orders are still illegal. These commanders and soldiers must accept responsibility for their complicity and inaction. To my knowledge, not one of them questioned or stopped such abuses...as they have a right to do so with orders that violate the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice). The travesty is that not only did the senior leadership fail in its moral integrity, everyone else down the chain of command also failed. None of these people have any honor....they speak the same language as the National Socialists of Germany....I was only obeying orders.
Shame on all of them. The era of deniability for personal responsibility continues.
I don't remember those soldiers ever receiving orders to do these things? Yes, torture was authorized by the Bush DOJ, but these soldiers did those things without the knowledge that were allowed to. They treated prisoners inhumanely on their own accord, and if we are talking about prosecuting Bush attorneys then we should not be talking about pardoning the soldiers who essentially did the exact same thing as the DOJ in condoning this mistreatment.
Don't think for 1 minute that Sgt Graner was running the prison or even a portion of it. He is a mid level supervisor in the military who takes order from people above him. Shame on the DOD for hanging him out to dry with a 10 year prison term for doing what he was instructed to do.
The UCMJ is neither Uniform or Just. If it were then several levels of his supervisors(read commissioned officers) above him should be sitting in jail with him. The officers piss and moan because they were demoted and cry scapegoat.
As a former member of the US armed forces I'm appalled and embarrassed that justice didn't reach further up the chain of command.
Just 1 more reason that people should not work for an employer that has it's own justice and prison system.
As Mike Dukakis said, 'The fish stinks from the head.'
This REALLY puts the nail into the coffin of the Bush administration. And deservedly so. What a black mark on the US for the past 8 years.
The mistreatment of prisoners is a crime under both international law, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (see Article 93 — Cruelty and Maltreatment). Why isn't Janis in prison? I want to see the whole chain of command exposed. It's sad that all of these people followed their orders, didn't question the system and now have to deal with their personal demons for the rest of their lives. How are we better than the enemy when we do things like this?
Congratulations for standing by your statements for 5 years in despite of all the media coverage against you and the others falsely convicted. America is behind you and want real justice served against those in the Pentagon, White House, and Justice Department that approved these evil military tactics.
Yes Maam, General.
I feel that all of the soldiers and the colonel should be release, restored, promoted paid for time lost over the last 5 or 6th years and continue their career in the military if they like. Higher authority that gave orders to them should be reprimand but not prosecuted. Yes, the torture that they used on the prisoners was a bad thing, but it is not worst than the terrorist cutting innocence people heads off and displaying them on the TV. What you think....CC
I don’t think that orders replace common human respect for life and others. Regardless of who's fault it was, they still followed thru and as an ex Army Sgt I can tell you that there are policies in place to where a perceived un-lawful order can be contested. So, does this absolve them from guilt? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
Karpinski's plea to release the convicted soldiers is appalling. Sure, I get the fact that the memos clear them "legally," but when laws or conduct guidelines fall void of basic human rights, someone has to refuse to be the henchman. Abdication of personal responsibility leads to evil. Karpinski is advocating Holocaustic behavior.
I am so grateful that Col. Janis Karpinski has had the opportunity to speak up, as she has, about the injustices of what really happened. All along I have felt that this was all a cover-up by the Bush administration and hated to see those prosecuted and persecuted have to bear the brunt of someone else's crimes.
I so agree with her when it comes to reinstating all of them to their rightful places before these crimes were committed, and I so hope she is reinstated to her rightful rank. Thank you all for serving.
Soldiers receiving illegal orders are supposed to ask for the order to be stated again, clarified, and if they believe the order to be illegal, immoral, or unethical, are supposed to refuse the order. This has long been a "gray" area in military justice and ethics. Unfortunately for the junior Soldiers, their chain of command delegated this task to them. I have no sympathy for a former Brigadier General for not having the loyalty to her Soldiers to challenge an illegal order on their behalf. Where was she during the trial of Lynndie England? A military officer's duty is to not only their superiors, but their subordinates as well. I have no sympathy for this retired colonel. She took the slap on the wrist and was silent until it was in her best interest.
If Cheney and Bush issued memos authorizing such treatment of prisoners and then stood back and allowed those officers to do time for following their orders, then Cheney and Bush are the ones who need to be doing time. What a disgrace this will be if it proves true.
John:
When you asked "What do you think should happen as a result of this...?" you may have overlooked a critical premise that needs to be fleshed out; I wanted you to drill her with the following: "Are you maintaining, Ms. Karpinski, that because these soldiers at Abu Ghraib apparently received instructions from others that All of their actions for which they were punished, were therefore justified under law?" Without delving into this we cannot avoid possibility that the so-called "instructions" are being used as a political red herring rather than to refocus on exactly what happened at Abu Ghraib and why. Without this, unfortunately, people may be more politically prone to simply blame the previous administration rather than to hold human beings accountable for their actions.
And so if those who were already convicted of these crimes have their convictions rescinded... then who should be convicted instead?
Didn't people like Donald Rumsfeld give testimony in the case against the soldiers at Abu Ghraib? If these ranking officials knowingly lied in their testimony isn't that a separate federal crime of perjury?
I want my government to protect me and the constitution at the same time! It's not hard to obey the law, I manage to do it every day.
I think the feelings of shame are FAR from over here. Shame on the Bush administration for creating this issue and shame on us all for allowing them to do it.
Right-on General! Hold them to it. Require just desserts. Don't relent until both the line-level soldiers and yourself are fully vendicated and then compensated. A very large compensation, by-the-way.
Trouble is, since Nuremberg we don't allow "just following orders" as a defense for committing these kinds of serious crimes. The U.N. Convention Against Torture (signed and ratified by the U.S.) specifically states that superior orders can't be used. While the memos properly place blame on higher-ups, they do not exonerate people who committed the crimes.
As a former Intelligence Sergeant of the 290th Military Police Brigade (deactivated in Oct. 1985), the predecessor of the 500th Military Police Brigade, (Karpinski’s unit) I believe that the Bush-era memos had nothing to do with the sophomoric behavior of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. The chain of command in such a unit is very short: An Intelligence Sergeant, his supervisor, the G-2 Intelligence Officer and his superior, the commanding General. Karpinski said: “The soldiers were receiving instructions from people who obviously had experience at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or Bagram Air Force Base, or somewhere in between.” Regardless of who else may have been attached or assigned to her unit, she failed in the proper command of her unit and she is making excuses for her own ineptness and incompetence. She got off lightly with only a reduction in rank.
Although her solders did ill repairable damage to the image of the United States, they should get a pardon if any are still in prison but they should not have all of the convictions overturned or their dishonorable or bad conduct discharges overturned.
Here is a definition of torture:
A condition in which the Subject begs to be killed so that they will no longer suffer.
All else is an uncomfortable situation, harassment or humiliation.
I agree with BG Karpinski wholeheartedly. I refuse to acknowledge her reduction in rank because I believe it to be based on illegal charges. How do we fix this? These people's careers were ruined, their relationships ruined, their entire lives ruined. How do we undo all of this? I challenge the media to report these revelations as long and hard as they reported the original reports based on the photos! So, CNN, will you lead the way? I challenge you to do the right thing!
i know for certain that the servicemen, sentenced to their punishment should be able to hand punish every politician and general related to their punishment, even if means punishing the main man responsible, George Bush, the past President. Hint that where they should start. Tks
I agree. I never figured out how it was that the low level soldiers got blamed for this anyway. Stuff like that... while the low level soldiers may have carried out those orders, those were orders from "those in charge" far above them. By law, they HAVE to follow those orders, especially when their own government is telling them they are legal orders. (I believe military law says that if such a soldier refuses to follow legal orders, they can still be executed on the spot by on officer. It is illegal by military law to have your own thoughts on the subject of orders. You are only supposed to follow them. Period.)
These were the "fall" people who got blamed because the "people in charge" didn't want to take the fall and it would be easier on their careers if they made low ranking, voiceless soldiers take the heat for them. Its sick. She is right... change their discharges, let them out and give them back pay! They went to jail and had their lives messed up for something they were innocent of... and our government not only knew it but covered it up as well!
I can't believe there haven't been a bunch of comments on this.I never believed for one second these soldiers were doing this on their own.Being ex-military myself I know young men can do some silly things but that was way over the top and I always felt they had a little inspiration from further up.I hope they all have their records erased and restored to duty if that is their desire and that includes the General.
You should say why Karpinski was demoted. For shoplifting and dereliction of duty. Although she was in charge of Abu Ghraib she didn't have the slightest idea what was going on there.
I don't care what the memo's say or authorized. We in the Military are held to a higher standard and we are duty bound to stop/prevent/notify chain of command of abuses. Each and every one of us must have the courage to refuse an illegal order and accept that we may (and probably will) have to stand before a court martial to defend our actions.
Finally I have the answers I've been waiting for. Finally I can see what I have suspected all along is in fact the Truth. Finally we can hold the people in charge of these decisions responsible, and show the world that America does not tolerate tactics like this! I am proud of you for holding out on this despite your setbacks Brigadier General Janis Karpinski. I will forever remember your name as the noble character who stood up against the likes of those responsible for this wretched mistake. History has a way of remembering those responsible for atrocities like torture. Donald Rumsfeld, George W. Bush, Dick, Cheney, Alberto Gonzalez, CIA director George J. Tenet who sent the torturing interrogators to Abu Grahib, putting the entire war effort in jeopardy because they turned the United States of America into the bad guys. They have all run and hid, now we can pull their Ostrich heads out of the sand so we can put 'em in stockade on public streets in the USA where we will all scowl at 'em and spit on 'em in shame. I bet passing Muslims will throw shoes. You don't win the war on terror by becoming terrorists. You win it by noble means, and noble means alone. Stoop to the level of terrorists, and be forever at that level: the bottom.
Response of U.S. Government officials
U.S. President George W. Bush claimed the acts were in no way indicative of normal or acceptable practices in the United States Army.
Vice President [Dick Cheney]'s office played a central role in eliminating limits on coercion in U.S. custody, commissioning and defending legal opinions that the Bush administration later described as the initiatives, months later, of lower-ranking officials.[25] The Geneva Convention, which has been ratified by the U.S. and is therefore the law of the land, is explicit and categorical in banning torture, the use of "violence," "cruel treatment" or "humiliating and degrading treatment" against a detainee "at any time and in any place whatsoever." The War Crimes Act of 1996 [26] made any grave breach of those restrictions a U.S. felony.
On May 7, 2004, United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld made the following statements before the Senate Armed Services Committee:
These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again. I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in U.S. custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't do that. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American. And it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.
—Donald Rumsfeld, [27]
He also was quoted:
We're functioning in a — with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in a wartime situation, in the information age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they had not even arrived in the Pentagon.
—Donald Rumsfeld, [28]
As an Army officer reading Karpinskis comments absolutely infuriates me. At every level, from the soldiers that committed the abuses, to the commanders like Karpinski, deserved everything they got. I thought that someone who reached the rank that Karpinski reached would have the honor, integrity, and courage to take responsibility for what occurred during her command. To hear her pull out the Nuremberg Defense is appalling and an embarrassment to all Army Soldiers and Officers. The soldiers should have known what they were doing was wrong, their supervisors should have kept closer oversight, and the commanders should more closely monitored their soldiers. There is certainly plenty of blame to go around, but Karpinski is no martyr and ought to take responsibility like a professional and an officer.
She's right. The real failure comes from higher up. A lot of what happened there was a slippery slope that an 18-21 yr old might not have been able to process on their own, especially when an "interrogation expert" shows up and instructs them to handle the prisoners in a certain way.
If these taticts were not torture then why was these soldiers put on triall and then put in prison. I believe that the wrong people have been put in jail. Should be bush, rice, cheney, rumsfield and gonzales sitting in prison. The romans tortured jesus, and the republicans are all for torture,so they believe that it was all right to torture Jesus. These soldiers should be released and giving a full pardon immediately. Big black eye for the united states. May the bush administration rot in hell because they sure as hell won't get in to heaven.
I call BS, Karpinski. Those seven idiots under your command were just that, idiots–under YOUR command. You failed to properly oversee your troops. Those memos had nothing to do with the abuse the detainees at Abu Ghraib endured. Nothing.
Honor and integrity is something the former administration know nothing about so is it really a surprise that they let someone else take the fall. Anyone who defends the former administration and don't tell me that wubba didn't know because his puppet master Cheney was the likely ringmaster of the whole thing. This is the worst kind of betrayal, to be left out to dry by the commander in chief and anyone within his administration. I hope the DOJ and pentagon investigate and everyone from the judge who wrote the opinion, to Cheney and Bush to told them what they wanted, to those who issued the orders to do this are brought to justice. We loose ourselves and what we stand for if we allow these deeds to go unpunished by those who authorized the behavior.
Is she delusional? The soldiers responsible for the Abu Ghraib incident were not interrogators. She is revising history.
Let me understand this reasoning, if you don't intend to cause pain then its not torture.
Therefore if we want information for a prisoner we make him watch us put another prisoner under anesthesia so he feels no severe pain and amputate a limb. Then we tell the prisoner if he does not answer our questions we will do the same to him. If he does not answer our questions we will continue amputating body parts until he does, all the while not causing severe pain. That according to Bush would not be torture.
Brig. gen. karpinski is 100% right. punish those administration high ups (cheny and the gang) who authorized it and those officers who did execute it through low level armed service personnel knowing fully well that those actions were illegal and brutal.
rescind the dishonor/demotions/ convictions made. catch the real culprit. don't make ordinary people scapegoat.
This is a disgrace. I have lost what little respect (and I mean it was little) that I had for the Bush administration. This just blows my mind. I am completely flabbergasted. The Commander in Cheif of our armed services just left those soldiers hanging out to dry. These soldiers suffered in ways that I cannot imagine. They have been slandered, lied about, incarcerated, and had their futures ripped right out from under them, all because our government chose to LIE. But why should that suprise us, I mean after all, all this admistration did was lie to us it's entire eight years in office. I am really ashamed to be an american right now. Please Mr. President, do not allow anyone to take you in this direction. Please rebuild my faith in our government. Please Mr. President restore all to these soldiers who have suffered because of the previos administrations lies.
There are some of you out there that may say well it was the soldiers who did it. And the video evidence doesn't lie, but any of you that have served in the armed forces know that when ordered, you do what it is they tell you to do. Why? Because if not, it will cost lives!!!!!
Orders or not, torture is a violation and those soldiers SHOULD stay in prison. No pardons! Following order? That's what the Nazi soldiers said...forget it!
Pawns in a chess match.
It is time to break the cycle of rank and file soldiers being blamed, prosecuted and imprisoned for actions they believed were legal while the real culprits up the chain of command go free.
It is time we stopped screwing around and start prosecuting the Bush era war criminals. Let's be reasonable, only prosecute those people who apparently broke laws the US has prosecuted other nations for breaking. That would be torture, including waterboarding. The lawyers are a reasonable start. But there are others, such as Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez and Cheney. Frankly, I have been reluctant to say this, but the tin-pot dictator himself, George W. Bush should also be included in the list.
So we are clear, I am a middle class business owner. I'm a liberal, but not a radical. I am a military veteran and I consider myself a patriot.
I am also deeply embarassed by what the US has become. It is time to begin setting things right.
We have held court trials, acting as prosecutors in cases that were not as egregious as what happened in the US for the past 8 years. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.
Perhaps pardons are in order for the soldiers who were tried and convicted of these atrocities is in order, I'm not so sure about that. The US has never allowed the "I was just following orders" defense to stand in international trials –so I'm not sure about that. But I am morally certain that if these soldiers are guilty (and even if they are not) then those up the chain of command are also guilty.
I watched (then) Senator Hillary Clinton specifically asking for these documents during the Abu Ghraib investigation on the hill in 2004 on CNN – she was the one asking the tough questions of the US Armed Forces Command Operations Officers. They allowed the Private and others below them take the fall when they took all of the glory. The convicted soldiers, it turns out, were following lawful orders of those appointed above them and those responsible should be held accountable.
Immediate presidental pardon is required if not I will never support Obama on any other issue
We're supposed to know right from wrong and any American soldier who follows "wrong" orders must disobey even on application of penalties for refusing an order. Given these soldiers and their commanders were held for punishment for following orders it stands to reason we must punish all above them....to the top.
Unfortunately following orders is not an excuse. That is why we have made sure that other people in other countries have been put on trial for there acts, because we agreed a long time ago that being told to do something and following orders does not absolve you of any crimes.
It is unfortunate that there will always be people in the world that are so weak in nature that they will have others do their dirty work and then run and hide when the S*&^ hits the fan, but it is one thing that every person in the military has to really ask them selves. Is what I am being asked to do the right thing? If not.....you have a choice...get in trouble with the military for not following orders, or go on trial for possible war crimes., especially since what they were accused of doing went against the Geneva Convention. Neither situation is a good situation, you just have to decide what you can live with the best.
Col Karpinski has one great hole in her story. She was the commander of the facility. Those soldiers worked for her. For her to say that others were controlling them means either she was negligent in her command duty or she was knowlingly derelict by turning a blind eye. I just cannot take her seriously. From my point of view, she is lucky she didn't end up sitting in prison with the other seven.
As a commander, she had the absolute authority to command her people in what they could and could not do. If she failed to exercise her authority, how does she lay that off on someone else? If someone outside directed her or her people to do something improper and she allowed it, how is someone else to blame? The fact they did something improper (from outside influence, she says) and she failed to discover it shows she failed to supervise. ANy way you slice it, she's just not credible.
Hello? "I was just following orders." was the rallying cry of the good German soldier.
The Military Manual of conduct allows lower ranking members of the military to question an order that might seem unlawful, or that it might violate the manual.
Even the lowly soldier can question an unlawful order. Yet, those good "I just follow order" soldiers went beyond their duties and tortured other human beings.
The upper echelon certainly should be punished as well as those good soldiers who chanted. "I just follow orders."
So ex General Karpinski got a slap on the hand instead of military court martial.
Just because memos allowed torture, doesn't make those who conducted the torture innocent. They shouldn't overturn any of the soldiers sentences; instead, they should be prosecuting those who condoned this behavior...all the way to the top. Not only is this just, but it will show non-democratic nations that we do not tolerate corruption and abuse of power in democratic societies. So many of my friends who are citizens of non-democratic nations do not see a point in having a democracy when the same corruption and torture takes place without any prosecution of the people at the top. We NEED to prove to ourselves and citizens of the world that we are a great nation who always seeks justice. It's time to prosecute these felons.
If the government won't give you and the "bad apples" vindication.
As of citizen of AMERICA, I do! Peoples lives were ruin on those lies!
You and all that were the scapegoats of the last administration are the heros of this !!
God Bless.
This was a case of a bored, National Guard, red necks from West VA with absolutely no command or leadership from this gender equality loser of a so-called General Karpinski. She is responsible because she was in command of the damn place.
If I was a soldier in the armed forces of the United States and I had to torture someone aka waterboarding – I would have said No I'm Not Doing That. And I would take the consequences, dishonorable discharge, court martial, whatever. Its No Excuse – I only did what I was ordered to do? Huh?
It started with Bush at the Cheeneey and Rice and the rest of the crew should be put on trial. The Constitution of America demands justice be served which means put these people on trial. This President and this Congress owe the american people this justice. If they do not put these people on trial then they are placing themselves above the law, and no one is above the law in America according to our Constitution and our laws and leaders. Lead by example.
As a civilization, I thought we'd moved beyond being able to use "just following orders" as an excuse for performing injustices.
The Nuremberg Trials established that soldiers have an obligation to object to immoral or illegal orders. "They were following orders" isn't a valid defense. Karpinski is pathetic; she's certainly aware of this.
Bush and Cheney should be tried at The Hague!!
What Col. Karpinski fails to realize is those memos were for interrogators, and her soldiers were MPs. Just like US soldiers are federal property, so were those detainees, She reserved every right (just as MP commanders in detainee facilities have right now) to tell whoever wanted access or who were telling her MPs what to do to go to hell.
Sure she would of got sacked for it, but she would of done it with her head held high and those stars still on her shoulders. Instead she most likely played their game, probably being promised another star if she cooperated. It got leaked out and they picked her to take the fall.
I thought one of results of the Nuremburg Trials was the international precedent that officers who took part in "war crimes" could not successfully claim innocence on the basis of "my superiors told me to do it." The individual soldiers may be able to be "innocent" because they may not have had training on this sort of thing (maybe), but I don't know if the General/Colonel is "innocent" because her superiors told her it was ok. I think that, as an officer, she would have been properly trained to notice something wasn't quite right about the treatment of prisoners. Even if a memo said otherwise.
Do not murder, do not torture, do not rape!
I think it is despicable that the top levels of our government allowed the men and women who put their lives on the line for our country to be imprisoned and demoted to cover up their own incompetence and inhumanity. Each of the soldiers punished should get full restitution as well as compensatory damages. Bush, Chaney and their cronies in the Pentagon, CIA, and whoever else stood silently by while expressing outrage at the behavior of the soldiers need to be punished for their crimes and their cowardice.
On this i am inclined to agree with her; give back the lives taken from those soldiers and from her – it is becoming abundantly clear that the White House shielded itself and hung these people out as scape goats. I am neither democrat nor republican – there is no biase, Id say the same if had happened under the current administration.
I also think that the soldiers who were tried and convicted should be vindicated also. They said over and over at the time they were following orders. I guess the bush administration thought the public would be satisfied if the threw the rank and file soldiers to the wolves and saved them selves.
Karpinski still refuses to accept the fact that she was derelict in her duties. The photos that she allowed to be taken while she was in command were not part of an controlled interrogation process. They were the result of immature soldiers without command supervision.
And because of her dereliction of duty, the U.S. forces in Iraq suffered a major setback that cost the lives of many more soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors than was necessary.
I don't think that retiring as a full Colonel is a punishment. She should have been busted to private and given a dishonorable discharge.
When will everybody stop using the term "enhanced interrogation techniques" and call it what it is - torture. Pure and simple torture. This is one of the most disgraceful periods in American history, and the use of euphemisms and and nicknames does not exonerate what Bush/Cheney gleefully authorized our soldiers and agents to do.
Those two chickenhawks - Bush and Cheney - are war criminals and should be prosecuted as such. Cheney especially - Bush was more of a lamebrained frat boy drunk with power who probably never really understood what it was he was doing. Cheney knew all too well. And, judging by his recent strident comments and pathetic rationalizations, he enjoyed it.