American Morning
Bush-era memos vindicate Abu Ghraib soldiers?
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/04/30/intv.karpinski.art.jpg caption= "Former Brigadier General Janis Karpinski says the Bush-era interrogation memos cast doubt on convicted Abu Ghraib soldiers."]
Interrogation tactics such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation and forced nudity did not violate laws against torture when there was no intent to cause severe pain, according to the Bush-era memos on the tactics released by the Obama administration April 16th.
A Senate report declassified last week says senior Bush administration officials authorized the aggressive interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists, despite concerns from military psychologists and attorneys.
But when the Abu Ghraib prison scandal broke in 2004, it was soldiers and officers who took the blame, including the prison’s commander, former Brigadier General Janis Karpinski. She was demoted to colonel over the scandal. Karpinski joined John Roberts on CNN’s “American Morning” Thursday.
John Roberts: You read these memos, I assume, when they were released by the Obama administration. What did you think when you were reading them?
Janis Karpinski: I was shocked. And then I felt this sense of exhilaration or relief. Finally, finally, finally - I did a lot of talking back to my computer screen as I was reading them. And I immediately felt sympathy again for the soldiers who were blamed and accused and imprisoned. Remember, they were all packaged up as seven bad apples out of control on the night shift. Where were the people who were defending these decisions, these memorandums then? Why weren't they intervening? They let these soldiers go to prison for these accusations.
Roberts: You felt vindication when you read these memos? What was the thought here? That this type of behavior was authorized so why are people being prosecuted for it?
Karpinski: For five years, I was repeating the truth - the truth is easy to repeat because it's the same truth over and over again. So from the beginning, I knew that I didn't know anything about this. I knew I was being kept from having any information. And five years later to discover they had the information all along, very, very troubling; very disappointing.
Roberts: So, these memos detail a number of tactics that the Justice Department believed were allowable. But when you look at the photos that came out of Abu Ghraib and you see naked prisoners stacked up like a cord of wood with the service members laughing about it. The fellow on the box with the hood over his head and the blanket draped over him and the wires attached to his fingers to suggest to him that he could have been executed through electricity. None of that was in the memo. Did these soldiers here at Abu Ghraib go well beyond what the Justice Department said was allowable?
Karpinski: The soldiers at Abu Ghraib were receiving instructions from people who obviously had experience at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or Bagram Air Force Base, or somewhere in between. The people who were giving them those orders or those instructions certainly had access to, if not directly to, the memorandums. They understood the permissions given to them in those memorandums. And, in some cases, you look at the memorandums, you look at the photographs that were kind of hand-drawn to support the instructions in those memorandums, then you see in living-color in a photograph taken from Abu Ghraib what those memorandums produced. So five years ago I believed, and now I really believe, from those memorandums, the administration, the people in the Pentagon, the people in the White House, the top level of our government, they were terrified because these photographs were the photographic evidence of what the memorandums were saying.
Roberts: What do you think should happen as a result of this, particularly to the soldiers who were convicted and put in jail?
Karpinski: Well, five years. Give them their lives back. Revoke the accusations. Certainly release the last soldier remaining in prison. Release him.
Roberts: Do they deserve a presidential pardon?
Karpinski: They do. And they deserve to have all of the convictions overturned. They deserve certainly to have their discharges dishonorable or bad conduct discharges overturned.
Roberts: And what about you? You were brigadier general in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison, demoted to colonel because of that. A lot of ramifications on your career, pensions, and things like that. Will you seek recompense from the Pentagon?
Karpinski: Well, I will if nothing is done automatically. But as a result of this, they owe this to each one of us. Give it back to us because these mistakes have now been exposed.
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Listen to all you lame brains until you've been to war and experianced what the other side does to you, cut the crap about our military. It was in the news and showed on TV the beheadings, the roadside bombs, what we show about our miltary is mild . War is War and we are at War so get over it and enjoy what you have until they come for you.
Bodine/MU – Actually I supported the war on Iraq because Saddam forgot the condition that ended the first Gulf War – – allowing UN inspectors inside the country. In reality Saddam made a fool of the world just like other dictators are doing now. Are you really foolish enough to believe Dictators care about peace and negotiations?
Soldiers have the right to question unlawful, illegal orders, yes. But they were told these methods were legal! If you are an enlisted, lower ranking soldier, probably with a lower level of education, are you going to question methods deemed acceptable based on the legal advice of adminstartion lawyers and those at the highest rank in the chain of command? I don't think so.
In response to MC, you don't get the real issues here. First, most of the people involved, at least at Abu Ghraib, had absolutley nothing to do with Sept. 11. Second, even if they did, these actions put all of our military members in jeopardy should they ever become prisoners. Why respect worldwide bans on torture for people from a country that doesn't respect them?
This is insane. This woman was put in charge of this prison and she's just trying to pass the buck as far as it can go. She claims that she had no knowledge of any of this but the people at the top of the government sent out memos telling the soldiers to do this. She was the commanding officer, she should be held accountable. The whole thing doesn't add up to me.
Regarding Torture, if you knew that torturing one suspect could save hundreds or thousands of lives, would you do it? It's really easy to say "torture is evil", but if you had the opportunity to save lives through this method, and you had a high degree of confidence the suspect is a terrorist anyway, I'm sure your convictions would be tested.
I've seen worse at high school hazings...
I believe the soldiers went above and beyond their orders and were definitely wrong in taking pictures. They should still be punished. But what is revealed in the documents is something that never should have been revealed. The government's job is to keep us safe. If it includes employing tactics that the people may think brutal, then that is what they do. These things are not made known and should never be made known. President Obama made a serious security violation in releasing these documents. "Ignorance is bliss” and the American people are better off for it. There are reasons that we have Secret adn Top Secret classifications.
For the argument of having repercussions brought on our soldiers because of the scandal, better our armed and prepared soldiers than our unarmed civilians. These interrogations saved the lives of thousands of non combatants.
Not getting 8 hours of sleep is torture? Then my 6 month old who keeps us awake at night should be tried for war crimes.
As a veteran infantryman, I think the former General needs to just quit her whining and accept responsibility that she and her troops failed in every sense of discipline, ethics, and morals–and then go on about her life. The memos don't vindicate her or those she failed to lead and take responsibility for.
Would we want our American soldiers demeaned and becoming sexual playthings for deviants in other nations' militaries? Hell no. She has made it more likely by her leadership failure that American troops will be subjected to torture, inhumane and degrading treatment in the future. And she's so proud of herself.
This is what happens when you have people incapable of real leadership put in leadership positions. Officers get away with far too much and are held accountable for far too little. Do all Americans a favor and just go away, Karpinski. Accept that you didn't do your job, failed in your ethical, moral, and professional obligations to yourself, your unit and soldiers, and to the principles for which the nation you swore to defend stands.
Leaders who hide behind memos are no leaders at all, just morally decrepit managers looking to cover their own rear-end.
The ends justify the means, Right? How do you explain this one to your kids. In one hand you have guys here who were just doing their jobs. Then you look at Nazi Germany, I guess those guys were just doing their jobs too. Unfortunately, no matter how deplorable the orders, there are certain people who take a sick enjoyment out of the job they are "forced" to do. These soldiers deserved to be punished. DON'T TAKE PICTURES OF THE CRIMES YOU COMMIT, whether you are ordered or choose. This entire story is just sad, and the source of the entire issue remains at large.
If Karpinski did not know what was going on, that would not be too surprising since she had multiple site to supervise and multiple layers of supervision who should have passed the information to her, and none of them were penalized. However, she also had a responsiblity for supervising the peace time training of the MPs, which should have told them that humiliation was not acceptable treatment.
If the MPs did not know this, then it was because of poor training. MPs of all people should know the limitations on treatment. The memos, even if they were published, would have been merely an interpretation of law and should have been challenged by someone high up in the chainl Apparently they did not reach Karpinski, so I doubt that they ever reached the Abu Ghraib crew, or they would have been cited by the defense.
The trouble is not that the squad members were punished, but that the MI unit and its chain, all the way up to whoever signed off on the program should have been cell mates and received even longer sentences.
However, the MPs should have known better. I doubt that they were shown the memos, and the memos themselves are not law but merely interpretations, and highly biased at that. The penalty
When I was in the USNavy, I was an enlisted sailor (E4/5). I ignored/disobeyed many "orders" fm E7's & higher (including officers). My justification was due to "just cause". When the order giver tried to intimidate me, I again stated my objections. Eventually, the Commanding Officer would listen to both sides of the disagreement.
The Commanding Officer would tell me:
1. Follow the order w/o question (which I would do most of the time – depending on the order)
2. Follow the order so he didn't "look bad" (which I would do & the Commanding Officer would take the order giver into his office for a very one-sided conversation & then the Commanding Officer would commend me for my ability to be outspoken as well as standiing my ground when given an order that I considered to be invalid/unlawful)
3. Ignore the order (the Commanding Officer would take the order giver into his office for a very one-sided conversation & then the Commanding Officer would commend me for my ability to be outspoken as well as standiing my ground when given an order that I considered to be invalid/unlawful)
I was lucky to usually have a Commanding Officer who respected someone who was able to make a decision (based on logic), as well as able to "stand my ground"/"speak my mind".
I would sometimes question a decision made by my Commanding Officer & was never punished for "speaking my mind". Occasionally, my Commanding Officer would "re-think" his decision due to my input.
I enlisted in the USNavy in my late 20's. I had been trained for (& worked in) law enforcement (counter-espionage, counter-terrorism, security, executive protection, private investigation, crime scene investigator, fugitive investigator {bounty hunter], etc) before I enlisted in the USNavy. Due to my pre-Navy training, I COULD NOT be intimidated..
Most people DO NOT have the ability/courage to be as outspoken as I am. Reservist/Nation Guard DO NOT experience the military the same as an Active Duty person (they would follow ANY order due to being a civilian soldier).
I DO NOT feel that the "pawns" s/b punished (they deserve "much compensation" for their sacrifice). We CANNOT judge the "pawns" until we know what threats were stated by the order givers (NJP, Courts Martial, Dishonorable/Bad Conduct Discharge, etc).
Being "part-time" soldiers", the "I was just following orders" defense is acceptable (the order givers [up to the top] should be prosecuted).
Prosecute the top persons (Bush, Cheney, all others who approved torture, etc). My experience as an "Active Duty" person, I CANNOT fault the "part-time" soldiers" who were "just following orders".
Order givers appears to have used "itimidation" on the "part-time" soldiers.
I saw a car being forced to stop by a state trooper using his car to perform the "Pit" maneuver on COPS to stop the suspect! That is TORTURE! That officer should be held accountable and the victim, a convicted drug dealer should have all of his crimes wiped from his records.
Sorry but "following orders' doesn't cut it. If you are ordered to massacre a school full of children, do you do it ? No you do not. Nazi soldiers were put to death for war crimes after WW2 for "following orders" at the various Gestapo camps. Following orders is not enough, sorry.
Re-read the Taguba report and then think about what she said here. It is apples and oranges. The debate on torture and the activities at Abu Gharaib are not the same thing. The story and investigation of Abu Gharaib detention facility put a spotlight on her. She was busted for her deficiencies.
As a former soldier, "just following orders" is not a reason to be EXCUSED. In the military, I was taught that you must use your own moral compass because you could get tried either way" for following orders if the orders are illegal or unjust as well as for following orders. Unfortunately, I agree the soldiers were the only ones prosecuted because they have a military code of justice which they are o uphold. The Spooks well they are unfortunately sometimes apart from the law and the soldiers should have refused to follow their orders. You know we prosecuted rank and file solders as well as officers in WW2 for how POWs were treated.
If we do throw away our morals then we become no better then the terrorist.
It is so disgusting of the Bush team to manipulate the world by blaming the saga on a few bad apples. These soldiers sacrifice their lives for protecting American’s interest, and they never expected the very top leaders to betray them. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Tenet, Ashcroft should all be in jail.
What would you do if you were interogating a man who knew where a bomb hidden in your own house was and your childrens lives were at stake? Would you ask him nicely, what if he didn't tell you? Would you hit him? How hard? All these questions are very relevant, and what you call the torture of a few could have verry well saved tons of innocent lives. The terrorists now know that we can't "torture" them (I say that in quotes because every other country does far worse than those memos allowed) so what motivation do they have to tell us any information now. If I were a terrorist I would now feel no obligation to give out any information, because under this new law, even slapping is considered "torture". If you want to know what real torture is ask someone like McCain or any other POW and see just how bad they treat our soldiers, we treat our prisoners better than they were treated in their own country for goodness sakes.
Has Henry Miller ever been waterboarded, I wonder?
Anyway, whether "advanced interrogations techniques" were authorized or not, there were other elements of the photos that were just as disturbing, like the female soldier giving the thumbs up next to the corpse and stuff like that. It was above and beyond anything that was authorized and the lack of humanity being displayed by some of the posters here is examples of why the US will be at war forever with somebody. But I guess some people just enjoy death. Remember the longer the US is at war the more Americans will be killed in battle. That's the bottom line. The Abu Gharib photos may have added years to the "war on Terror".
And stop making this a conservative vs. "libs" argument. Are there no liberals giving their lives over there, too?
To Bob A and any other person who blames former President Bush for the world's woes: set aside your unfounded hatred and pay attention to what Obama and the Democrats are doing to our Country on a daily basis. Releasing the memos should never have happened, but you get that when you have Obama trying to deflect public attention away from his socialist agenda and his administration's obsessive way of continuing to undermine former President Bush's time in office. You and others like you are exactly the kind of "sheep" Obama and the democrats want to manipulate.
These poor warriors we placed in prison, and degraded a General. All because they were ordered to "soften them up" . I just can't see these warriors thinking on doing this torture by their own thinking. Some one allowed and placed in their heads it's ok to do. Who's the war criminal?
Speaking as a service member, 'following orders' just doesn't cut it. It is made clear to all soldiers that orders which violate UCMJ protocols do not have to be followed. Standard procedure dictates the soldiers should have reported this violation of military procedure and reported it to their chain of command.
If they had done this, and documented their efforts, probably all that would have happened to them is that their chain of command would have attempted to punish them. Then they wave the documentation around and continue to scream 'shenanigans' until the press gets wind. No one gets tortured, and those responsible are punished.
This did not of course happen. The sheep followed the wolves and led this country into a dark chapter of military history.
"i was just following orders" is no excuse. the soldiers that were prosecuted are sadistic and ignorant and unprofessional and deserve what they got. instead of pardoning everyone and removing personal responsibility as if they were children doing what their parents told them, the parents should now be prosecuted.
What all the helped protect SGT Darbey – Their lives were forever changed. He can not go back to his home town never given a proper military status for this actions – the accused and their company commander already had personal issues and failed leadership, and we forget who one of accusued like young children and most of thier commander and upper commander were fully aware and when the investigation came down..:we are brother MPs... why all this"... and as for the general – she should be fully accountable she was there and had the green light which started back at the US
It appears some people have forgotten what happened to the people that died on 9/11. People burned alive, crushed to deathj, etc. These prisoners are terrorists, and those dirtbags deserved whatever they got. None were physically beaten, just put through mental "torture", humiliation. I could care less what was done to them. They were beheading people, remember?
joelrothschild shame on you.... This is nothing more then the Bush administration calling the shots and not backing the people that carried out the order. Bush and his administration has been nothing but a disgrace to America and the world. Now their are still Rep. out there that think Bush's War was justified. I ask one question, how can we go from WMD is the cause of his war to freeing a country from an evil dictator in less then a month? Iraq has nothing to do with 911 and until all of the Rep pull their heads out and realize that you all were made a fool of by believing BUSH and of course the worst person to ever represent America, CHENEY, the Rep. party will never hold any clout again in America or the world. And I'm not a Dem either..... I AM AN AMERICAN!!!!!!!
I was appaled by the events at Abu Ghraib prison, but at the same time I did not buy into the official line that it was the result of bad soldiers. I am glad to see that we have the normal assortment of ignorant individulas on line this morning using their 1st admendment right of free speech to justify and eye for and eye mentality. Unfortuently that is the mentaility that caused this entire mess.
Ulitimately, General Janis Karpinski was in fact responsible for the events at Abu Ghraib, she was in command and should have regardless taken control of the situation. The soldiers are also responosible for they should have known better, however when we have a break down in the chain of command we must ask more questions to determine who in fact was pulling the strings. So who was actually running the interigations and directing the conduct of the guards of Abu Ghraib, I do feel this is important to determine, I fear that the answer lies outside the military. I beleive that we had young soldier that wer in fact not trained as military police or prison guards placed in a position to take orders ar at very least guidance from individuals outside the military chain of command. The ramifications of Abu Ghraib are much farther reaching than just some photos and stress positions.
Being from Georgia was not a slam... it was a remark about being from the USA.... Sorry if I left that open for interpretation.
I tend to lean towards Gil's line of thinking. Given the circumstances I don't see that anything wrong was done. I think these "tortured" individuals got off pretty easy. Did you ever hear that nice guys finish last?
Bubba,
I am guessing here, and if you are from Georgia then listen closley... If one of your family members were in the twin towers, or even at the Atlanta Olympics say, I bet you would be screaming the loudest at getting whatever information we could and do whatever it takes to make this not happen again. So stop with the "I'd quit" talk... Americans don't ever quit and military people don't know the word. If you want to defend our people (your countrymen) , our way of life going forward and this nation, then I suggest YOU pick up a weapon and stand a post, otherwise jsut say thankyou to the brave young men and women who will.
You people do not know what torture really is.
Sadly, this former officer is mixing two separate issues. If her position is valid, she should have issued unit guidance on treatment of detainees, then supervised her soldiers' actions. Had she done that, their conduct, revealed in the photos, would not have been the surprise she made it out to be at the time.
Administration policy is one issue, but the individual acts of misconduct by soldiers under her charge are a separate concern. In the aftermath of the release of the photos, it was clear from hers and other leaders' statements that several layers of the chain of command were not supervising their troops. Our troops deserve better leadership.
I am so sick of putting my life on the line for a bunch of out-of-touch people who have no idea how the world works. Take your idealistic, unrealistic view of the world and place it firmly in your posterior.
Seems people want to forget what got Karpinksi in trouble had nothing to do with waterboarding or any of the approved techniques. Naked pyramids were not approved, I'm willing to bet the closeness of the dogs were not approved. Electrocuted prisoners was not approved. Sexually mocking the prisoners was not approved.
I was a soldier in the light infantry, went to the Stan and it sucked. We caught people all the time, burying I.E.D.S , almost always they are being threatened to do it, or payed, usually teenagers. We would make them stand until they couldn't any longer, then they had to walk in circles until they just didn't have anything left. they had to use their left over water bottles to urinate in when they drank all the water. All on top of missing prayer.
We almost always received info on weapons caches, I suspect many of being old neighborhood caches, it's just their culture to assume all the men in a village are fighter when need be, farmers otherwise. Except the lazy who use the Koran to intimidate people to do their share of the labor, also known as the Taliban. The Taliban are not ideological fanatics, they just thugs, like cheney and a miriad of lobbyists.
Anyway, deprivation is the only things that works, no light, sound, human contact. It's torture to be sure, any unwilling stress is torture
We are at war people. I am sorry but if torture and humiliation is what it takes to make someone talk then so be it. The next thing you people will say is prosecute a soldier who kills someone during a shootout in war. War is not nice. People die. I say the U.S. should do whatever they can to protect the lives of Americans and the soldiers who are fighting to defend our freedoms.
These soldiers should not have been prosecuted in the first place. Let them get on with what is left of their lives.
Sorry to all you libs on the board, but this isn't torture. Torture is standing on the 90th floor of a burning building and deciding whether you want to burn to death or jump to your death. Torture is sitting there wondering when they are going to saw your head off, knowing that it is definitely coming. I really don't care what we did to these scumbags.
The Bush WH was a cradle of vipers and no one is less guilty than the other one. I was told from day one, when I was in the service for 26 years, that if an order is unlawful, you don't have to obey it. Using excuses: "the worse of the worst", "they killed 3,000 Americans", "terrorists hate America", "I was following orders" doesn't cut it. We are a nation of laws, even if Bush, Cheney and the whole criminal enchilada didn't know it and for a democracy, the Constitution must be above all ideology, private or secret agendas. We don't need to vindicate no one, they violated the provisions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, UCMJ, and as such the convictions stand. Now we need to go after the whole Bush administration if we are to continue to be a viable democracy, otherwise, we are not any better than the Pinochets, Stalins, et al. I want my America back with its Constitution and values made whole again by punishing exemplarly those responsible for its demise.
Humiliation isn't torture.
Humiliation of prisoners is not right, but it's not torture.
"following orders" has not been a valid defense against crimes like murder and mistreatment of prisoners since 1947. Unfortunately, the US Armed Services don't teach that to our soldiers sailors and airmen.
The rabid BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) shown here is simply amazing.
Bush's failures are legion, from NOT securing our borders to that incredibly asinine "no Child Left behind" , to his failure to identify Americas attackers as radical islamists, to his declaration that ISLAM is a religion of peace, to his Marxist useless "bailouts" in the waning days of his administration.
BUT he took the fight to the middle east, instead of allowing the radical islamists to attack us here. It worked. No successful attacks on civilians since then.
Here's a hint for y'all. Stand up to a bully, and the other bullies leave you alone. Works on an international scale as well as a personal one. Ask Moamhar Khadaffi about it.
Now what message is sent when Hussein Obama bows to the king of Saudi Arabia and apologizes for America's successes to every tinpot dictator and whiner out there?
Another hint: it tells them that we are weak.
You asked for your "change". Hope you like it.
bush has always said he's proud of the troops and the job they do, and a few of the gung-ho troops think bush was the best thing ever to hit this country by "keeping us safe".
i wonder how they feel now that it's become clear he and cheney set the rules, and then through the troops under the bus when they were doing as they were told. i agree with the general; where was bush and cheney to defend them when they were being carted off to prison?
Col. Karpinski: You lost your credibility when you failed to know and understand what your soldiers were doing at Abu Ghraib. "I didn't know what they were doing," you said. WHY NOT? What were you doing during your command at AG? You obviously were not overseeing operations, inspecting facilities, or ensuring humane care for the prisoners under your care. You lost much more credibility by bowing out when requested to testify at the courts-martial of your former soldiers. (I know; I was there for their CMs, all of them.) If you were sure of your "truth," you should have been willing to testify for your soldiers. Where was your loyalty? Yes, the soldiers were shafted. That was obvious during their CMs. But you should have been there too, standing up for your troops.
Yes – vindicate the soldiers, after all...it's not like it's in the UCMJ that you do not have to follow orders that are immoral. Following that logic we shouldn't allow that Nazi guard in Michigan to be extracted to Israel for trial because...he was just following orders. Where is the cyanide capsule for Bush to take? At least Hitler had the common decency to do that for us! All this talk about God and Christianity in our Armed Forces and we can't even follow the morals of common goodness. No wonder the Islamic world thinks we are as bad as we think they are!
Time to resend those soldiers sentences. If the CIA operatives are not punished, and correctly so, then the soldiers should be allowed to have their life back.
I fully support the use of Torture against TERRORISTS. If waterboarding could have stopped 911 I would have supported its use 100 percent. Do not torture prisioners of war representing a
country but TERRORISTS fighting for TERRORIST organizations
deserve to be TORTURED.
The soldiers in the pictures were behaving badly and deserved some punishment, although I don't know about prison.
The 'general' deserved much worse punishment. Retirement as an O-6 paygrade will give her a comfy lifestyle even if she never works again. In other words, she wasn't really punished; she was simply denied a more exhorbitant retirement. A Commander should always be keenly in touch with what their troops are doing. She wasn't; she was derelict.
The excuse “I was ordered to” was not acceptable for the guards at Auschwitz, nor does it stand as an excuse today. We have the most highly trained and educated combat force in the world. As part of that education soldiers receive classes on the Geneva Convention and Codes of Conduct. As such, soldiers, from the highest General to the newest recruit, know that orders from on high cannot supersede the morals imbued in these standing orders. The hardest and often most honorable action is to stand up to authority when ordered to do something wrong. That none of the officers in this sordid chapter of U.S. military history stood by the morals the Army strives to instill is the true tragedy. These memos do not vindicate those prosecuted, it makes them more culpable.
You can't mistake the bullying intent of the Abu Ghraib photos. We turned our most immature schoolyard bullies loose on these people, the kind of jerks who take cellphone pictures while they push someone downstairs, and there's no denying it. What those pictures show is a bunch of low-IQ soldiers getting to do anything they wanted to captive men, and if one of those boys didn't yell "Squeal like a pig!" at some point during these 'interrogations' I ain't from Georgia.
Fmr soldier, you said "not one prisoner was harmed “physically” in any of these actions. Could we say the same if you were a prisoner in their custody?" Man, that's the point – we don't want them pointin' at our prisoners and muttering 'Abu Ghraib.' Do unto others isn't a joke at my church. And Dana, um, if my boss wanted me to #### some guy with a broomhandle, I'd quit?
The very same Government these soldiers fight to protect and serve is their biggest enemy.........God bless all of our soldiers, past, present and future....they need God backing them, because their President will NOT. War is war, you go in to destroy the enemy. Todays civilians in a war zone are tomorrows soldiers.........take a lesson from Robert E Lee on war zone ethics.....while you try to minimize civilian damage, the others destroy you. War is War, just ask Jessica ?, the young soldier that was captured during the first few weeks and repeatidly raped by the thugs, that were really soldiers dressed as civilians. What happened to the U.S. Patriatism that was appearent in every American citizen after 911 calling for revenge. Please media show the 911 seens every day on the 5 oclock news........ so the backing down cowards will remember why we have troops there.
Abu Ghraib pictures showed that the soldiers ENJOYED torturing their prisoners. Even if you agree with the practice of torture, even if you believe that the soldiers were given orders, you must agree that these sadists have to be punished.
Yes, there is war going on, people are dying, and as a soldier in the service of the United States of America, we have a duty to our country. But when you take pleasure or make fun of situation such as this, you are no different then what had been done in WWII by the Nazis or in other wars. As it is said….”..a picture is worth a thousand words..”.
Brigadier General Karpinski, as a commander should have known what is going on in her unit, no excuses and definitely a dereliction of duty on her part. The five that were convicted had their day in court, and I believe Ms. Karpinski should have been standing right next to them.
In the twenty plus years of my service, I always had a responsibility to County, my unit, and my commander; I don’t see any of that with this situation. It sounds to me that the chain of command was inadequate, to the say the least.
However, those solders should not have been procecuted if they were in fact doing what they were ordered to do.
The people in the United States are screwed up in their thinking.Humiliation,sleep deprivation,etc is not torture.Cutting off a civilian contractor's head while he is still alive is torture.The United States citizens have enemies all over the globe.I have spent many years living in foreign lands and I found that the only thing that the majority of the people of the world like is the U.S dollar.They would like to see us dead.I am not a war monger and I always tread lightly in the lands of others,When I came home I really appreciated all those things about the USA that we all take for granted.The politicians need to step back and do their own jobs.The intelligence agencies and military need to be able to do their jobs without interference or else we will all be living under sharia law.YOU HAVE TO PLAY DIRTY SOMETIMES WHEN DEALING WITH DIRTY PEOPLE!!!!!
Say what you will–but I am a West Point Graduate who was in Iraq for a year. With many friends in the FBI, the military, and ‘other’ agencies still, what you all do not appreciate is that these interrogations prevented over a dozen attacks in the US. Specifically, the interrogations at Guantanamo were particularly useful.
If we are going to release our tactics in some sort of apologetic admission to a world that has continuously preferred inaction and appeasement, perhaps we should have released the impact of those interrogations in terms of attacks prevented. (There were many!)
You same people screaming at the Bush administration would have screamed louder if your loved one had been killed, only to find out that we were holding people with information that could have prevented their death.
Before you shirk, just think about it. Your son, daughter, mother, father, wife, husband....dead because your government didn't take all measures necessary to extract information.
Would you still condemn him? I am not giving you BS, these are facts. There are people alive in American cities because of the actions many of you seem to rally against. Things are not black and white; events always come in shades of gray. The Obama administration's decision to release these memos is appeasement, and will absolutely cost us in American blood.
Many of you writing live in the very cities these prevented attacks were the target of.
Respectfully
Jon
Iraq Veteran-served as a Captain.
These kool-aid drinkers need to wise up to the fact that what was practiced as torture was no more than frat hazing. Why don't you ask the families of the men who's heads were chopped off on Al-Jazir television and posted on You- Tube what the meaning of torture is. Our America is in serious trouble with you liberal panty waists at the helm. You need to take a better look around because the mentality of a terrorist is to destroy infidels by any means, and torture is what they promote first and foremost. This country needs to stop bowing to the wants of the week and feeble mindled. If not we will re-live the atrocities of past history.
The Department of Justice of the United States and the Commander in Chief said these techniques were permissable. It is unfortunate that those entities were in charge at the time. They were complying with the law. To find them guilty of wrong-doing is to find that Administration of wrong-doing...unfortunately, the elite are free and the peasants are in jail with their lives ruined. It was either legal or illegal. If it was legal, than the all the soldiers should have the records expunged and entitlements restored. If it was illegal, the government should prepare prison cells for those responsible at the highest levels for authorizing these techniques and abusing their positions and power to have these actions take place. You can't have it both ways....if our country is to measured by its principles we must consistantly administer justice, whether we like it or not. That is the burden of honor and integrity.
You people kill me! Do you want to be safe or not – lets just invite the Taliban to live right next door. Our armed forces and our President Bush did what was necessary to get the information they needed to protect this country. I'll bet those people who lost family members on 9/11 have a different view!
We should let a jury decide if the ex-president and others are guilty of torture. If they are innocent, then they will be vindicated. Unfortunately the soldiers who have been blamed for this weren't given fair trials with all the evidence, because those up the chain withheld the memos.
Let me educate the people who have not been in the military. If a Commander says "Go sleep deprive those people" without an official memo stating that this action is legal, then yes you can object. However if that person has a memo from the President of the United States, who is Commander in Chief of the military, saying that its legal then they have to do it. If they don't they can be tried and removed from the military. It is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If there were never any pictures these people would have never been tried.
To Joel Rothchild Did you forget the chain of command. A lot of people would have seen these photos before Gen Karpinski. There is a real possibility She was the only scape goat. The only thing shes guilty of is being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This was and still is an illegal war. By the way I'm"Nam" Vet. and not some bleeding heart liberal
Bob Archer – you're a nitwit. Lincoln caused 400,000 American deaths just to hold the Union together. During the Revolutionary War, Americans resorted to "dishonorable" and barbaric guerilla tactics instead of standing in a line in the open to be shot. People like you will never realize the cost that needs to be paid for freedom,and protection from oppression and will always think that the Bush administration is evil for trying to protect Americans.
Just wait until the next terror attack on American soil happens in the next year or so after Obama dismantles every tool to protect us.
You know these people are kiling our troops, and emotions are high out there. So for the soliders who messed with those people who killed americans I have no pity. Why should we treat them with respect, they do not treat americans with respect and they wont even if we are nice to them. I read all these comments bashing troops how about you grow some and put your life on the line, and see if you feel the same way
They won't be released... you won't get your credibility back. And for that, those who sentenced you will go to jail. How is that?
I can only think of the end of the movie A Few Good Men when the privates are sitting at the table and judgment has been handed down. And the little white one says "we did nothing wrong", and the other one says " we were supposed to fight for those who couldnt fight for themselves". Well just because it was an order does not make it right. Just because you are a solder does not mean you do not have a moral duty to do what is right. And TORTURE is never right. If those people could not determine that on their own they deserve to spend the rest of their lives in jail, because the do not have the right to walk as free citizens in a free society.
From the top to the bottom, Bush, Cheney, Rice and all the other scum on the top rung should be tried, convicted and imprisoned for the crimes they committed against humanity. Just following orders does not work. We are America. We are the greatest nation, the strongest country, the leader of the world. Not so much anymore. We are now no better than the other dictators that have ruled in so many other countries throughout history. The Hitlers, the Stalins, the Husseins. We have gone up against many countries for the same crimes and now we justify our crimes by saying someone told me to. BS! Let's get the war crimes court up and running and prosecute all of the guilty parties. Start with Bush and work your way down. Bush may be an idiot, but he still authorized the torture and he was the President of the greatest nation in the world. We must, MUST, prosecute these people to exonerate ourselves in the eyes of the world, to clean up this stain that was made. And, Karpinsky, you are just as guilty. You stood by and watched this happen. We are now no better than those we are fighting, the terrorists. Our activities make us terrorists as well, no matter how you cut it.
I'm not quite sure what the big deal is. What would the insurgents do to us or the Iraqi Soldiers have done to us if they captured one of our soldiers. Sure the Bush/Cheney era was deplorable and we invaded a country that we had no real reason for (not proven anyway) but the psychological interrogations that took place are part of war. They were POW's and should be interrogated in as many ways possible to get information out of them so that at the minimum ONE LESS SOLDIER of the US will die. If they were able to get any information out of the insurgents at Abu Ghraib then I'm in complete support of their actions and feel that NONE of those involved should be held accountable. However, If anyone is to be held accountable look at those that made implications through memos.
I will agree to Bush-Cheney being convicted as long as Nancy Pelosi is tried first. She knew and approved of this "Brutal Painful Torture" that we inflicted on these poor innocent people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, bless their hearts.
I'm not saying all of the techniques used were correct but for all of you out there that can't believe we did that, I have this question for you.... what if the information obtained from one of those interagations saved your son's life, how would you feel then??? Were happy to defend your right to complain about how we do our jobs! and your welcome! wanna be a REAL AMERICAN?? Buckle your chin strap, throw on some body armor and come stand next to me on the field of battle. Or just sit there and complain about everything so you feel better about yourself. " SUMMER PATRIOTS.. PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTETED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY!!!my end comment would be the same as " Friend of the fallen" see above. because I stand ready. How about you??
I cant believe what I am reading. Judge not lest ye be judged. I spent 15 months deployed and 12 months in Baghdad and I cant judge these soldiers. How can you?
By the way, I was a career military member. And I still say
"But this does not exonerate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. WW2 taught us that “I was only following orders” is not an excuse when war crimes are committed. This also does not let Karpinski off the hook. She should have known what was going on in the prison, put a stop to it, and took a stand. She did not, and she was derelict in her duty. "
And I was in the military and in Iraq when Abu Ghraib broke, and had I been at that prison, I would have been the one to break the story. I would have sent copies of the images to a family member in the states to be published if anything happened to me, and then I would have contacted my superior officers and asked what they would do to fix the problem.
It is terrible that our government would turn our back on our foot soldiers. Sacrifice them for political ends. Shame on George Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove. Shame, shame, shame.
They sacrificied these guys, then they lined up Valerie Plame, a CIA agent, and executed her.
I consider Dick Cheney and Karl Rove traitors. They belong in a prison, and the Govt. owes an explanation to these soldiers and General Karpinski.
Torture is torture. For those using 9/11 as an excuse to condone torture, shame on you!
Yes, the people who were at the top who signed the memos and authorized and ordered state-sanctioned torture should be tried. The should, if found guilty, go to jail. Bybee should be impeached and removed from his job (not jailed, but fired) because he doesn't have the legal judgment to be a legal judge.
But this does not exonerate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. WW2 taught us that "I was only following orders" is not an excuse when war crimes are committed. This also does not let Karpinski off the hook. She should have known what was going on in the prison, put a stop to it, and took a stand. She did not, and she was derelict in her duty.
Abu Ghraib meant that the disgrace of state-sanctioned torture was no longer a stain on the intelligence community, it was also a stain on our military.
When you are a young man in the service they begin training you that you cannot disobey an order. They do not tell you that you can object, they need the soldiers to obey unquestioningly and are told that they will be held harmless of the consequences for they are acting under orders. They are not educated as to the outcome of trials as some have suggested here.
When you choose to disobey an order, you are not held responsible for the consequences, but rather your entire platoon is. So you are choosing punishment for some 30+ people. That makes you the target of the platoons discipline, not just the commanders. It's a wolf-pack mentality that keeps people from acting as an individual. The military doesn't want self thinking individuals, they want automatons that follow orders willingly and without question.
The only ones who should be held accountable are the ones who are able to act individually and those are the officers and those who sent the word down the pipe.
Karpinsky, even with her rank, may not have been in the position to refuse the interrogation tactics. Many times in these instances commanders will be visited and presented with a "blanket" letter informing the commander that the visitor be extended every courtesy and that all control of a situation be handed over to the visitor. Again, her superior may have had full knowledge, but even a Brigadeer General may not have.
Ultimately it is evident that Bush and Cheney know about this and approved this. This is yet another example of their blatant disregard of the law. They started war with lies, illegal. They approved torture, illegal. They leaked a CIA operatives name out of malice, illegal. Where is Kenneth Starr when you need him? We can spend 60 million on investigating a stupid affair and even bring up Clinton for impeachment over it, but start an illegal war, torture hundreds of people, detain Americans indefinitely for suspicion of terrorism and you too can go scott free without even the hint of a trial! Yes, become an American President, where your political party will block all actions against you, as long as you make secret alliances with nefarious corporations to make them, and you, rich at the expense of the American taxpayers! Live the high life! Be an American President!
Give me a break. Our political leadership has become too corrupt. Corporation can no longer be trusted, and neither can the leaders that we trust to protect us. We need a leader like Theodore Roosevelt again to weed out the corruption, to throw these people in real prison, not some political holding camp for 10 months. REAL prison, the reason why cons have infiltrated our political system is simple, there is no real punishment.
How could anyone view these interrogation methods torture and call for criminal investigations while State laws still permit the death penalty? Does anyone really think being electrocuted is any less painful than waterboarding? Where is the President's moral stand on THAT issue? I am sick and tired of hypocrites with their double standards trying to criminalize the acts of some while excusing the acts of others. Crime is crime, and if you're not willing to prosecute all of the criminals, then how can you stand up and call for selective prosecution based on the opinion of whoever happens to be in charge at the time? If you're going to punish criminals, why not start with admitted homegrown terrorist William Ayers? Or tax dodging political apointees? This isn't criminal prosecution, it's political persecution plain and simple. The people who happen to be in charge now will do exactly what they want and mirror the behavior of the same people they now condemn. You think you have the moral high ground? Don't insult me by claiming my morals are are broken. You only look stupid doing it.
How does proving torturers acted under orders from the President "vindicate" anybody? It just adds to the list of perpetrators. 🙁
You know, I think it's real easy for someone to be an armchair quarterback and say what these soldiers should have refused to do, or should've said when faced with performing torture on detainees. It's easy to say that when your career is behind a desk in an office in a US city.
How many average americans do something as simple as tell clients that their boss or manager is out of the office, knowing full well that your manager is standing over your shoulder telling you to say that over the phone? If the commander in chief authorized torture as a US soldier, what makes you think they couldn't get away with doing something to you if you DON'T follow orders? I mean, people keep talking about what your rights are as an enlisted soldier in the US to refuse orders of torture, but how does that mean anything when the president of the US openly and blatantly tells you to do it? Your duty as a soldier is to follow orders, not rationalize what orders to follow!
The blame is squarely on the commander in chief for these actions because under any other circumstances these soldiers wouldn't have done these acts. Pure hypocrisy!
When people were challenging the intelligence of the start of the Iraq war, people were calling it unpatriotic to question the president of the US. And then people said you were not even an American if you were against his policy and not follow his lead. Now these same people have the audacity to say that you should've just walked away and disobeyed a direct order from a General, which started from the commander in chief? Are you that naive? Try doing that to your boss on your day job, that got authorization directly from the CEO and see what happens to you!
Wow, what a backlash, especially from people who were not there nor a career military member. Theses soldiers did nothing wrong except what their supervisors told them to do. Regardless of what shift or what MOS you held, there is and will continue to be a supervisor on duty. These soldiers were cut loose when the bleeding heart librals caught wind of the tactics used to gain information, not one prisoner was harmed "physically" in any of these actions. Could we say the same if you were a prisoner in their custody?
The commander being demoted to Colonel was a miscarriage of justice and she was used as a scapegoat in the whole process to shine the light away from her supervisors.
If you really think this was unjustifed, then you really don't have any clue to how to defend a nation and keep your countrymen safe from harm. maybe you should excercise your right that these soldiers help defend... your right to leave and live somewhere else?
The dictionary defines torture as inflicting pain on someone. The purpose of these techniques seems to be more to instill fear or discomfort into the detainees. This is like comparing bungee jumping with Brazilian Bikini waxing. I wouldn't like to do either one but one because of pain and the other because of fear.
Therefore to define what was done as torture is not correct, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop. Obama is wrong to tell Americans that the info can/could be obtained through other means. The question to Obama should be "if another 9/11 event happens and it could have been prevented by banned interrogation methods, will you still be comfortable with your decision?" Obama seems to be saying that the loss of several thousand American lives is less important than losing our moral high ground. And I think I agree with him but to go back and throw the previous administration under the bus like this is real cheap politics. Stop campaigning Obama and move on.
I think what we should be doing is thanking President Bush for keeping us safe not second guessing his decisions. Have we forgotten that we were brutally attacked? We did not start this war, Islamic Jihadists did. There was no torture – let's move on.
I'd like to see the entire Bush administration stripped, stacked like wood, and electrocuted!
These guys and gals are the most devious thugs to ever sit in the White House. I think we will be hearing about all the crimes they commited slowly trickle into the public for many years to come.
No one should be surprised that these documents finally found 'the light'. No one should be surprised Cheney was up to his neck in water.
What is surprising that a whole bunch of people knew about this and still fried their own soldiers.
Really. To allow your soldiers to take the heat clearly demonstartes the individuals that made up the Bush admistration had backbones made of jello.
Love the peanut gallery judging these troops. Don't be so quick to judge. If you could get in a time machine and go back to take the place of one of those soldiers, some of you might find out just how much you have in common with them.
Watching the scandal unfold was like reading Lord of the Flies for me – tough to accept not because of what it tells you about the characters, but because of what it tells you about yourself.
If you're going to refuse to prosecute CIA torturers, you should pardon the military torturers that have already been convicted.
"Equal justice" and all that....
If we take pride in our military when they do the great things they do, we must also take shame when they dont, and right now, we should all be fully lathered in deep shame. We tortured human beings when we did not have to – okay, they were our enemies – but still, if we would not stand for them torturing us, we should never have tortured them.
This period in American history WILL repeat itself if we do not take action soon. We are doomed to repeat these indecencies. Our only hope is to bring Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfiwitz, and all these "traitors" to trial and lock them up. Frankly, I would like to see all of them waterboarded just to see what their view of it might be after they have sampled its horrors.
America is no longer "great" and no amount of Republican lip-service is going to change that. In this case, our actions spoke way-louder than words and each and every American should be ashamed of what was done in our name, and with our tax dollars.
Another reason why we shouldn't even consider prosecuting those who outlined legal reasons justifying torture unless we are willing to prosecute those who gave the orders to "find legal authrity to justify our actions!" It's about time America be willing to prosecute the ultimate authority instead of granting them presidential pardon! Look back at it – Nixon and Watergate, Regan and the Contras, Bush and torture. Money and greed. Just because someone says "God Bless You" doesn't make them a christian!
Come on folks this is nothing new, when we were in Nam we did a whole lot worst then this for interrogation.
We did what ever we had to to get the job done, and to this day I still don't regret it.
You folks need to wake up to the "REAL" facts about WAR, it's not a game, it's not being Politically correct or nice, it's not mean't for 'PRIME TIME TV' it survival.
After you've seen your buddies laying in pieces in front of you and you just captured several of the enemy and you know they hold information that will save you and more of your troops, what are you going to do?
Hold hands when you know they are mounting another attack in several days? You just don't have the time sometimes to be "NICE".
I guess folks forget about what they do to prisoners.
This is why they call it 'WAR' give the troops a break and be thankful that on some occasions 'WE' do what MUST be done.
Mort
Once again it is proven. Orders are given and handed down to the scapegoats who will pay if those orders are ever discovered. And stop saying Bush is an innocent idiot who probably didn't understand what he was doing. He's a self centered brat who thinks that underlings do not have feelings and low lifes don't even feel pain. I have been screaming almost from the day Bush went into office – why were we so against political prisoners in Russia doring the 60's when that's exactly what we are doing now? Remember the days when if you tried to question what Bush was doing you were called a traitor? A Radical?
I'll stop calling them “enhanced interrogation techniques” when we stop using similar terms like "oversees contingency operations" and "man-made disasters".
I served with Col Karpinski and I can tell you she is one of the finest officers I ever met and I knew she had been used as the scapegoat when this story broke. I am glad she finally feels some vindication.
It is amazing to me how many people are still all about blaming President Bush and the White House here. Let's remember people the thing that started all of this was over 2000 people Tortured, murdered by fanatics that dont understand conventional rules, laws, civil rights etc. They are not protected by the Constitution as they are not citizens and while I do agree that we need to be " better" then the other side, we will need to gather information to protect our troops and Americans everywhere. If it means depriving terrorists some sleep or insulting their manhood by letting them go naked, and it saves I American soldier I am all for it. I do agree that these MP's were not inerrigators but lets remember what caused this to escalate. Isreal has the right idea, hit us we hit you back harder.. that is all the terrorists understand.
I thought the court martials from the Viet Nam War established that troops who follow illegal orders are still culpable.
This is such an ugly situation. All the way around. In the military we have a law of armed conflict that we have to follow. It specifically disallows humiliation, torture, and many of the things that happened in Abu Gharab. Worse off, we have the UCMJ that specifically disallows a service member from following illegal orders. If they do so, they are likely to be found guilty of the crimes they commit in Court Martial. It doesn't matter if the orders came in a Top Secret memo from the President himself. Further, Officers in the Military serve at the pleasure of the President, but their job according to their oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the President. An illegal order from the President is no different than an illegal order from anyone else. Granted, I can imagine the tough time any General would have debating the legality of an order from the highest levels, let alone a Private or Junior NCO, such action would be highly detrimental to their military career. I feel for the folks involved in the Abu Gharab scandal, but they did break the law.
The thugs that authorized this torture should be tried and made to bear responsibility for their acts. The weak minded or sadistic clowns that carried out these "orders" should also be held responsible for what they did. "Just following orders" is not an excuse for this depravity! I find it troubling that individuals that wrap themselves in the flag and expound their "Christian values" are the most supporting of this type of conduct? I don't find anyplace where Our Lord said it was acceptable to torture another human being or employ "enhanced techniques" which is simply the same evil with a fancy title!
We may be missing the point here. Remember, these were prisoners who would blow up our troupes and their own country men (women & children included) and help hide the identity of others and their plans to kill. None of them were killed or physically injured. Psychologically damaged, scared, & degraded maybe, but not killed..
Don’t you wonder why, compared to all other wars, so few of our solders have been killed or wounded? Don’t you wonder why there have been no further attacks on US soil? The Bush rules and our great soldiers have been protecting us.
Do you think you are safer now with the Obama team making CIA documents open to the public to discredit his political foes? Bush made errors as all presidents do. But, on this subject, he was right.
I want to say, that these memos do support the claims made by the Soldiers who bore the brunt of blame for Abu Ghraib and they should have been released a long time ago. Here is the issue; everybody says give those that were punished for their actions back thier lives and over turn the convictions etc. The problem with that is that one of those Soldiers who was convicted will never have his life back, due to the fact that he was killed in Afghanistan; working as a civilian contractor still defending this country even after the entire country threw him to court of public opinion, which called him a coward and criminal. He died doing what he felt was right and doing what he believed he had too do try and move past Abu Ghraib. So I ask all of you that do not know what we the Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen do and sacrifice on a daily basis (was going on even before 9/11 and OEF/OIF) to keep this country safe so that you can have your opinions to let us do our jobs and keep the wolves at bay. If the methods seem harsh too you or you object too them, sign the paperwork and try to change the system from within, dont just complain about it while sitting in the comfort of your local starbucks. If you dont feel that you need to do anything about it then stop complaining about it and go about your lives. Becasue you complain when we do our jobs and then you complain when we dont and something happens, choose a side and stick too it. The groups and individuals that oppose this country will never be as fair or as kind to those that they capture or question, I have still yet to see the US Military or Government cut someones head off on camera. So I will leave you with this.
"People sleep peacefully in there beds at night, because rough men stand ready to do great violence on their behalf."
I don't think Kevin meant "funny." What he meant was "peculiar," or even moreso - 'par for the course."
What you good people are forgetting is that these people are trained from day one to "follow orders". It is beaten into them from the minute they get off the bus. They look to their commanding officers for direction. The Bush administration went in the wrong direction. It always returns to the fact that the people who are at command should take responsibility for their actions and decisions. This did not happen.
There are many of us alive because of this so called torture. Humiliation and scaring someone isn't torture in my opinion.
Why doesn't everyone get up in arms about what our enemies do to us. Given a choice you would take US interrogation tactics to those of our enemies anytime. I don't know how many of you served in the miltary, but I know in the Marine Corps you follow orders. Especially in war. These people were Army, but I would suspect its the same way. Pardon them, and drop it. If things were your way there would have been many more attacks of US civilians in this country. 911 wouldn't have been the first big one.
Persons in the military have the duty to disobey unlawful orders.
That should have been learned at Nurnberg.
No, its not funny.
Maybe you, Kevin, want to stoop to their level, but I don't. Maybe you want America to be like North Korea, or other countries that torture, but I don't.
This is America. We are the birthplace of freedom of democracy. Our ideals have always been higher, regardless of what has happened around us.
During the fight against fascism, we didn't become fascists. During the cold war, we didn't become communists. I am not willing to throw away our higher standards, our morals and our idealsand become torturers and murderers.
First off for those who doesnt know, a General is last in the chain of command, I have read a lot of comments trashing the General and the soldiers. Its easy to sit on the outside and judge the inside, being in the military and pretty much any other company you have to follow a code. It's easy to say they didn't have to follow this and that order, their careers would been doomed and they would still received dishonorable discharges for refusing to obey orders. I don't support the soldiers actions, but it does support that torture was authorized. It's the way the punishment was carried out thats the most troubling, the ones at the bottom received the most severe punishment while the ones at the top get no significant punishment. Being reduced and allowed to retire with full benefits isn't punishment that's early retirement. Being reduced to lowest rank, jailed, and given a dishorable discharge is excessive punishment, I think they should been still allowed to serve after they completed their punishment.