American Morning
Ex-insider: Harsh interrogation tactics were a mistake
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/05/14/intv.zelikow.art.jpg caption= "Philip Zelikow summed up enhanced interrogation methods as a mistake during the first congressional hearings on alleged torture yesterday."]
A former State Department official and Bush White House insider summed up enhanced interrogation methods as a “mistake” during the first congressional hearings on alleged torture yesterday. He called the program a “collective failure” and said both parties share some of the blame.
Philip Zelikow is the man who made those claims. He was executive director of the 9/11 Commission and went on to become counselor to Condoleezza Rice at the State Department. He joined Kiran Chetry on CNN’s “American Morning” Thursday.
Kiran Chetry: You testified yesterday at that congressional hearing that, “The U.S. government adopted an unprecedented program of coolly calculated dehumanizing abuse and physical torment to extract information. This was a mistake, perhaps a disastrous one. It was a collective failure.” When you talk about this as a collective failure, who do you think that much of the blame lies with?
Phillip Zelikow: I think this is one of the things we need to understand better. What happened is the country… a lot of the leaders of the country in both parties believed for a while that they needed to use these methods to protect the nation. They believed that because they thought there were no good alternatives and because they thought this was legal. I think both of those judgments were wrong. We know a lot about alternatives and, in fact, we've now proven that the alternatives work in our own record in Iraq and against al Qaeda worldwide. And I think we've also learned that the legal judgments were flawed too. So we need to understand how our – how our leaders, including the congressional leaders of both parties who were briefed, came to these conclusions that there was no alternative and that this was legal. This was a collective mistake.
Chetry: And the interesting thing about what you're saying is you believe they were largely ineffective. That's a position that Dick Cheney, the former vice president continues to defend. He's saying that these interrogation methods were effective. They didn't violate the law. He says they save lives and the Bush administration successfully defended the nation for 7 1/2 years since 9/11. What do you make of his claims?
Zelikow: Well, it's actually highly misleading. Because, of course, if you have the highest value al Qaeda captives in the world for years, anything you get from them is going to be of some use. And a lot of valuable information was obtained. The issue isn't did we get valuable information from these people. The issue is - were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse? In other words, it's a comparative evaluation. So when you just say well did we get good information reports from these people and then you get in an argument about that, that's a sucker's game. The real issue is to do the comparison and actually a lot of information was available at the time to do an honest comparison that wasn't used and since then, for example, we've been fighting al Qaeda in Iraq for years using methods that comply with international standards in a very effective fight.
Chetry: You had a front seat to some of this. You're a former senior aide to Condoleezza Rice. Why do you think then, if we have history on our side and that there are other methods to get information from people that we capture in the times of war, why do you think this was allowed to happen on our watch in the United States?
Zelikow: First, it’s because of the atmosphere after 9/11; full of crisis and alarms. I had some insight into that atmosphere at the time. And people were fearful about what might happen to the country. Second, you had an agency that came up and said, look, we can develop some new ways that America has never tried before that we think will work and for which there's no alternative. Third, the leaders were told these methods were uniquely effective. And fourth, the Attorney General told the nation's leaders that those methods were legal and several of those judgments, I'm afraid, were deeply flawed and we need to understand how that happens.
Chetry: You wrote in a memo in 2005 challenging the findings in these interrogation memos. You question the legality of the justification for some of the techniques and you said the memo was considered dead on arrival, DOA, and it was actually ordered destroyed. At that point, why didn't you resign or come out publicly about your concerns?
Zelikow: It wasn't just my concerns. I was being joined by my colleagues at the State Department, including Secretary Rice. We were all trying to change the policy and we didn't leave because we were changing the policy. The policies that we had been using for interrogation of prisoners were effectively dismantled by the end of 2005 and actually we brought all of the prisoners out of the black sites and to Guantanamo where they could be brought to justice in an announcement made by President Bush in September 2006. So the policy was being changed and moving us in a healthier direction.
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As a former Paratrooper from the 82nd Airborne Division, and recently retired. I would like to ask one question: Has anyone thought about what happens to our Soldiers, Sailers, Marines and Airmen when we get captured? In most cases as a POW we would love to get water boarded or any of the other tactics versus a "Beheading"! In some cases some of the individuals who were waterboarded had actually participated in American "Beheadings" in the past. Before this whinning gets to far out of hand, take a look back into what has happened to our captured Troops from Somalia forward.
1SG (RET) K.D Baggett
82nd ABN DIV
Not taking any prisoners ,as our enemies practice ,would have solved the whole problem.
The immorality of torture is independent of its effectiveness. The only question on the table is whether we were cowards (seeking personal safety by our immoral acts) or aimless sadists.
Well, we did torture. Knowingly and deliberately. I'm glad that I don't have to make the decisions about acts of that nature. We want our leaders to make the "right" decisions, but what is morally and ethically right is not always the same as what's right for our best interest.
My problem is more of the hypocrisy of the leadership, or lack there of. It was done and then denied.
To Worried Moderate,
I have read them and you are wrong.
Anyone else care to check it out?
This links to the text of the Geneva Conventions.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
Understanding this requires an understanding of numerous other U.S. policies, laws and rulings that directly and indirectly relate to this. Sorry there's not a neat tidy rationalization of your views.
Let's all be informed.
I am so frusterated wit the entire waterboarding situation. You people could give a damn about America and the safety of your families. These people interrogate with your safety in mind first and foremost. Secondly if it was the other way around and you were the ones being interrogated by these extremists, you would have already had your heads chopped off on the internet. Use your heads people and stop making our country appear so weak!
Fred: That's the question I was just about to ask. To those that abhor "Torture" aka waterboarding, if a loved one of yours was being held captive and you had 24 hours before they would be killed, and you happen to have one of the captives would you:
a) Play nice and hope they realized the mistake they made and give you the information.
b) Ask them repeatidly to PLEASE PLEASE do the decent thing and help you.
c) Interogate for 2 hours, give them 1 hour off, interogate another 2, etc...
d) Harsh interigation methods such as water boarding.
e) Hand me the cordless drill and torch!!!
It's always nice to be to idealistic, until real life hits you in the face.
I'm sorry I'm a d man
People who support torture don't support American values. If they want to live in a country that tortures, they should move to N. Korea or Iran.
And I was under the delusion that America was supposed to be "The good guys." 🙁
Kind of seems like these folks should consider themselves lucky we didnt whack off their heads, that's what they would have done. Now that's torture, this mickey mouse junk their talking about now is not torture. No bones were broken, they still have their fingernails. So what if they had a little discomfort, war is hell and they started it.
How does waterboarding compare to BEHEADING?
Which Muslim terrorists observe the GENEVA CONVENTION?
Tactics must change with a brain-washed enemy
who is unafraid of death.
Of course the police have to be squeaky clean. How would you feel if you were arrested, prosecuted, and then convicted by police and district attorneys who are not completely above board? You'd challenge your conviction, right? Or would you just let them do whatever they want and let you rot in jail, or worse?
Once you have lost a brother, sister, mother, father, wife, son or daughter to a terrorist attack on U.S. soil, then and only then you will realize that what the leadership of our country did was justified in gathering the information needed to stop more attacks from happening. Until you realize that the terrorist play by their own rules and not by any Jenova Convention and will do anything to destoy the U.S. maybe then you will stop crying about the techniques used to extract viable information to stop more senseless attacks on our great nation. You must realize that at the time that this happened the U.S. already had viable information that more attacks were imminent, we just didn't know who how or when they would occur. We got that information and those attacks were thwarted.
funny how the profound moralists ... have no morals or dare i say it ... family values ... when it comes out, we will all be ashamed that Dick Cheney was ever elected and reelected to office ... clearly a dark day for all Americans
This whole mess sickens me. These killers actually have rights and the weak pathetic Americans that can't stomach the WAR want to turn the other cheek. I can see the 3000 people who died in the twin towers mean nothing to these folks. I heard all the arguments concerning the laws and such. Folks let me tell you now, this is WAR and when your life hangs in the balance there are NO RULES you do what you must to survive and win. War is messy and cannot be played as a board game and then you clean up. These animals behead people alive, imagine a knife very slowly cutting through your throat and then your neck being severed while you are still trying the breathe and you can see everything that is going on. Now thats some thing that is not human so why should we waste our time caring how these animals were treated????? These killers are laughing at us because we are better than them right?????? Some times harsh methods must be deployed to offset harsh realities!!! America, get your heads out of your butts and support your country!!
TW,
Arguing with your first sentence – "I guess one could say, defending or looking for ways to defend the safety of our American people is a mistake." – would be, to use Mr. Zelikow's phrase from above, a "sucker's game." And that is exactly why you preface your point with such a comment.
Your second sentence is closer to fair, yes, criminals can be criminal, while government ought very much to be better than that. If those in public service were to be "sloppy," as you say, I think that would be the bad precedent.
We should not torture, not because it is ineffective or inspires more terrorism, but because it is a grave sin and against God and man.
The world is still stunned that the Bush administration made torture policy. Then they continually lied about it. Very perverse behavior from such an ostentatiously Christian crowd.
I don't think I can really say what I would and wouldn't do until I was entrusted to protect this nation. I would hope that I would maintain my morals and values. We should not kill people but if someone broke into my house and was trying to hurt me or my family I probably would kill them. Their are so many positions you could take regarding the enhanced techniques that were used. If you take the position that you were trying to protect this nation and be proactive than these techniques might be justified in your eyes at that moment. I would not want our troops to be treated in humanly so we probably should not treat people like that.
Saying all that, this is war and war is not neat and orderly. Innocent people get killed! Wake up! Regardless of our technology and how much we have grown as a nation it still boils down to one main theme. KILL OR BE KILLED. Until i walk in someone elses shoes I don't know what really happened. Sometimes you are not fully informed about a situation but you think you are and that causes you to hold alot of opinions. Until I am briefed by the CIA about the plans these monsters have or had for us than I can probably evaluate the situation a bit more.
My goodness, what false reality do we live in when we think that war is nice and pretty and everyone does the right thing all the time. Thats why soldiers die! The darn rules of engagement are established by people who probably never been in a combat situation. We need some old vienam vets making these decisions and get rid of the dam policians. We probably would have been out of this war 3 or 4 years ago.
To worried moderate:
You state " Another wonderful note you fail to SEE is that the people being interogated DO NOT FALL UNDER the Geneva Convention. Read, learn it, love it. They are not uniformed military, therefore they are not considered POWs.
The Jews in Europe were not as you say "uniformed military, therefore they are not considered POWs." So I guess it was okay to for the Nazis to torture them.
To the Jewish people you would be known as a schmuck.
The issue here is, are we going to copy this revenge formula for dealing with the rest of the world. An Iranian chops off the head of an Israeli, then the Israeli does similar to the Iranian. It never ends. All this does is produce a culture in which children are brought up hating America and more enemies are born.
We can get much more and accurate inteligence from the rest of the world if they realize we are the good guys and Al Queda for example, are the bad guys. The rest of the world tires of their behavior.
IMO, if you connect or identify with these captives to where they realize you arent the enemy then they are more willing to give you help. These are human beings, they cannot deep down possibly feel good about what they are doing. It is done out of fear and hate.
The way we win is making this an entire world against Al
Queda/ Taliban and not Bad America against Bad Al Queda/Taliban.
And Chaney has done more to destroy this country along with Bush than anyone in modern history.
torture is cruel and unusual punishment that violates our consitution. end of story. whether or not it's effective or not is a moot point. we could end the israeli/palestinian conflict with two hydrogen bombs to wipe out the entire mess. effective? sure. "the ends justifies the means." no, sometimes, the process is even more important.
I believe water boarding and other such techniques should never be used and should be considered torture but lets not confuse those types of techniques with those that do permanent damage such as repeatedly breaking limbs or yanking out finger nails or repeated rapes (males and females). Those are example of real extreme torture that are used by oppressive regimes. Also remember that the people these techniques were used on are murders of innocents who think nothing of murdering innocent women and children and in fact do so on purpose.
the second that innocent lives are at stake (hundreds, if not thousands), and the alleged terrorists make their decision not to tell, the government(those who keep us safe) have the right to do anything necessary to get the proper information to keep their people safe. security is the number one job of a government and once that security is threatened, they have the right to do whatever is necessary to properly do their job.
as long as no lives were lost, i commend the actions taken by the government
Hey Phil how easily we forget 9/11...oh I'm sorry that was our fault
I'm tired of people saying, "we do it to our troops so it can't be torture". We do it to our troops so they can understand what it's like to be tortured and have a better idea of how to handle it. We torture our own troops as part of torture resistance training. It's as simple as that.
Alex is right part of living in a free society is the chance that some will take advantage of that freedom and use it against us, but that isn't a reason to give up what we stand for.
Well as a retired military member I have been water boarded while in training, In I had to go Three times. Effective but I do not believe it was torture.
I believe that our country has gotten so soft that soon everyone will be at risk. And further more I have not seen a country yet that abides by the Geneva conventions rules, we are always the one who has too.
Come people everyone wants what we have and they are coming after it. Read your history
What wud be the difference between us and the people we call terrorists if we stoop down to their level. In their eyes we would become the terrorists.
We cannot bring about change claiming to be saviors while acts of some of our own contradict us.
Then I guess one could argue that Saddam was just merely trying to protect his country. And Kim Jong-il is trying to protect his, and so on.
I understand that torture might seem like the fastest way to get what we want... but it's proven flawed time and time again. I think, as a country, we are capable of taking the harder road and making it work.
PLUS – very importantly – no one ever talks about the toll torture takes on our men and women acting as torturers. Can you imagine how they must feel haunted? Talk about ruining someone's life. As the daughter of a war vet, I can tell you that the effects of war last and linger. I'd rather have our troops/CIA/FBI/whatever be able to go home at the end of the day knowing that they treated their prisoners with respect and dignity, to the best of their ability.
It's easy to be critical if you have no responsibility for the immediate safety of the country or are trying to extract information to save someone you love.
I prefer Dirty Harry attempting to extract the information to save the little girl burried in the shallow grave, if it were my wife or daughter I would hang them up by their, well there are two of them.
Fred
Do we consider the people who killed Daniel Pearl and held his severed head up before cameras and bragged about it civilized? We should open every day playing the videos of those thugs flying those planes into the World Trade Center. We should also play the videos of the Muslims around the world celebrating that day and on our street here. Bush was blamed for everything while he was there.Gas prices are going up so there must be a big oil guy still in there somewhere. You ,CNN ,and moderate and just plain censor all you want but if you and your liberal ways win we all lose. You invite us to chime in but what you really want is control of the media.
I agree, they should have been shot period! These are terrorists who blow themselves and other innocent people w/them, decapitate and other atrocities in the name of Islam. Enough!!!!!!!
Finally, a Bush official who goes on record saying that torturing prisoners was a mistake! I think these last 8 years will be looked upon as a dark time in our country's history, when we did things as a country that we have NEVER done in over 200 years of our history, including during the bloodiest wars this world has ever seen. At this point, it's not about which party is to blame, it's about ensuring that our highest ideals as a country, including habeus corpus and humane treatment, which truly make our country great, are never trampled on again for the sake of political expediency.
These guys are going to be tried. It's inevitable.
Or we can send them to the Hague, if that's your pleasure.
And I'm supposed to care about what happens to "highest value al Qaeda" captives, why? These are people that are proud, card-carrying members of an organization hell-bent on destroying us. What do people opposed to this type of interrogation think would happen if we didn't employ these methods? These members of al Qaeda would gradually come around to see that we are a humane nation and politely answer our questions (thereby blowing the whistle on their whole group)? And then what? We'd say "Thank you so much" and send them on their way? Wake up people.
America really needs to ask itself this question. The sword cuts both ways. How did America want its soldiers treated if they were captured in battle?
I find how we decided that this is ok troubling. But most of all I think some of this was done out of rage and vengence. I mean really- if you didn't get the information you wanted the first 50 times you waterboarded someone what makes you think doing it another 100 times will work. There is no rational reason to continue this.
Regarding Dick Cheney- he's one of the biggest pieces of garbage on the planet. This guy has pretended to want to keep the nation safe- then why did he torture people for false intelligence that they knew was false- then rush us into an unjust and needless war in Iraq. Because that was his plan from day 1. Torture does not work or we would not have been in Iraq. Iraq did not make the US safer. If you think so ask the families of the 4000 troops that were killed there. Dick Cheney is a criminal.
Hey Walleye..you wrote do unto others as they would do unto you...let's see that' means non whites can enslave you???? Genocide relating to the native Americans...What about bombing a two major cities the way the US government did in WW2...and if you were even slightly educated or not to strung out when you were in college you would have realized that they war was done and the bombing was to show Moscow what the US had...Steal all you natuirla resources as you did to most African and SOuth Americans nations....Enslaving a whole race of people for 400-500 years...
So before you speak know the history...it's only a littel flowery caues it's written by the enslavers...the colonizers...the slave masters....and the all have one thing in common
ANGLO SAXONS
Steffan hits to the core of the problem. This is not a law enforcement issue people! This is unregulated war executed by people working for our eradication and unconcerned about beheading people on video for the world to see. Also, the last time I checked it was called the Constitution of the United States not the world constitution and I didn't spend 20-years of my life protecting it so terrorists could get a fair shake while my own countrymen died at their hands.
To TW Harris:
You are wrong, wrong and wrong. Of course our public servants and military personel need to be almost squeaky clean. (I didn't use quotes because you don't know how to spell.) We need to set examples of how civilized people should deal with criminals and enemies when they have been taken inrto custody or captured. If we do not treat them properly then we are no better than the Nazis. Therefore, you are either wrong or you are a Nazi, take your pick.
This guy is a moron...how easy is to come back after fact and say well we should have handed to the running back before we decided to throw a pass on that play. The running play may have scored but we'll never know...moron
So what are the alternatives, asking nicely? Tickling? It's laughable to hear people say these techniques don't work.
I find the naiveté of those who think we haven't been torching our enemies for information under ALL administrations for the past 200+ years humorous. This wasn't something new that the Bush Administration came up with. The only difference these days is that we don't leave marks and we allow the subjects to live. Seriously, use your brains people.
They still try to rewrite history! It is nice that Zelikow wants to clear his conscious but he still walks the tightrope of half truths and limited responsibility. I am so sick of people trying to shift the blame to Nancy Pelosi when they try to equate the responsibility of the Democrats in Congress to that of the Administration. Spreading the responsibility as a collective failure is a conveniant alternative to reality. Imagine how Fox news and the rest of the media would have characterized Pelosi had she questioned the morality/legality of enhanced interrogation. I wonder if Cheney would have accused her of threatening the safety of the American people. The responsibilty for this fiasco lies squarely on the shoulders of the architects of this policy. Some accountability should also be had by those who continously mischaracterized the facts, suppressed the truth from coming out and those who intimidated those who tried to do the right thing. Members of Congress could not discuss the 'National Security' meetings and I remember at the time that the expressed vailed criticism of the program to the extent that they could do so legally. This was all part of the deliberate game the Administration played to manipulate and intimidate those that tried to uphold the rule of law. The whole truth is there, waiting to be uncovered and it needs to be. Whether or not this happens will help to determine what kind of country we hope to be in the future.
Read this book and try to come to your own conclusions. Amazing how much information has still not come out involving these issues.
The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals By: Jane Mayer
We are dealing with terrorists from various countries, not soldiers from a specific country, and therefore not subject to Geneva Convention or the Army Field Manual. These terrorists have no laws, no values outside their misguided religious fervor, and do not care if they themselves die, as long as they can kill hundreds/thousands/millions of Americans, and achieve their 72 virgins. When dealing with such zealots, which is more important? We cannot fight fair when the opposition is obviously not following the same rules.
We need our undercover intelligence people (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc.) to protect us – even if this involves doing things that we normally would not do, and would be abhorrent to civilized society. This is called Survival (of the U.S). If we do not do some of these things that would otherwise be repugnant, I am afraid that our country will not survive.
Playing by the rules versus an enemy that have no rules .... You can argue all you want, but if a loved one is held captive and is being tortured and will be killed very soon, and you have a chance to save that person by getting information out of a terrorist, what would you do? After examining my own conscience, I know what I would do. What YOU would do is up to your own conscience and whether or not you would stand there, wring your hands helplessly, and spout all those wonderful things about abiding by the rules, going to liberal judges asking what to do, negotiating for days, and pleading with the captors to release the loved one – yeah, that would work real well.
For me, I would put safety ahead of everything else – without it, we will not have a country left!
Jon Snow: Say WHAT?!?!?!? Have you even researched the Alphas? The Alphas want us dead, IRREGARDLESS of whether or not we "torture" them. They HATE that we have freedoms and do not bow before their almighty Allah. Unless you are willing to convert to their ways, there is NO WAY the Alphas will accept the Betas. (Funny also how you refer to the terrorists as Alphas and Americans as Betas, Fraud (I mean Freud) would have a field day with that).
If America can not be defended without destroying the constitution and the democratic ideals of democracy and individual human dignity, without obliterating due process and resorting to torture, then there is nothing left worth defending. The more than one quarter of a million American soldiers who died in WWII fighting fascism did not die so that the US could become a fascist nation too. This Bush/Cheney episode is a disgrace to the US and makes a mockery of those who have died fighting for American democracy.
Some Americans have become so cowardly they are not willing to risk death to defend America (i.e. the US Constitution), but they are willing to torture people to defend themselves. Whatever happened to , "Give me liberty or give me death"? It has been replaced with , "screw the constitution (i.e. America) but keep me safe".
MYSTIC: What a stupid statement! Have you ever heard of Right of Eminent Domain? Try understanding that before you compare interrogators to common criminals or thug like governments! The only thing that makes us less safe is caring more about the amount of collateral damage than going in and winning the war! We are too worried about the global perception of us!
Given the luxury of time, by all means go with the asking nicely and hoping they slip up and talk. But given an impending situation affecting the lives of all these bleeding hearts, lets see how quickly they ask "where was the information that could have saved my loved ones" when something happens we could have prevented with alittle water. They'll be the first ones screaming for government investigations about why the attack wasn't stopped and why the government failed.
I think you missed the guy's whole point. There are other alternatives which are just as effective if not more so, in protecting the nation.
TW Harris says that criminals can use sloppy techniques but not us and that is a bad precedent. That is exactly the case, cause we are the GOOD guys. It is HARD to be the GOOD guys and taking the easy way out and resorting to such techniques makes us no better than the criminals.
this is the guy we can thank, in part, for the massively inept 911 commission. if he's saying this there has to be a strange motive behind it.
"Hundreds if not thousands of American soldiers died because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and all the other dark places we tortured people. These tactics made us less safe."
Obviously, mysticdog is right. When you piss off a billion people for no good reason, it comes back at you.
Also, Cheney won't shut up about how he wiped his ass with the Constitution. He apparently wants a trial. Let's give it to him.
TW Harris: Yes, because it's perfectly acceptable for the government to stoop to the level of common thugs and criminals to achieve its goals, eh? Moron.
The government needs to be held to a higher standard than the criminal sector.
I'm glad that someone is making Pelosi face up to what she actually did, which was to condone torture. It shouldn't matter if she was told directly or through an aide; the point is she knew and now she's trying to backpedal through the use of semantics. I expect that the parsing of the word "know" will be equal to that of the word "is".
I'm a Democrat but I'm not a Pelosi fan. She's extremely annoying and does the party more harm than good. She needs to step down.
... A bad precedent, is one which is defined by dictators, extremists, and terrorists. To follow the practices of the Khmer Rouge, or the Spanish inquisition, is to follow a 'Bad Precedent'... TW Harris.
To suggest that we need law enforcement to bend the rules, is to suggest that the rules are established to be bent. We cannot permit this when we are discussing the fundamental principles of our democracy – Life, Liberty, and Justice. If we feel that we are justified to submit 'terrorists' to inhuman treatment, then we rely on our leaders to determine when justification is present, and when someone is a potential 'terrorist' – Without any legal definition of those terms!!!
What principles will protect American citizens from having their civil liberties compromised? Certainly not when we view all principles as being flexible.
In response to the above comment by TW Harris. Yes, law enforcement MUST be squeeky clean. Otherwise they are no better than the "criminals" you mention.
Standing up for human dignity, the rule of law, and democratic principles means we must treat any detainee the way we would want our own service men and women to be treated. The truly "bad precedent" is set when we abandon the moral high ground for "the ends justify the means".
A short trip through history shows that every time that motto is invoked, atrocities follow shortly in its wake. Do we really have such a short memory?
To Roger in Indie: Hate to tell you but Water boarding has not been deemd torture. It is a harsh interigation method. Another wonderful note you fail to SEE is that the people being interogated DO NOT FALL UNDER the Geneva Convention. Read, learn it, love it. They are not uniformed military, therefore they are not considered POWs. Sorry those are the rules you want us to live by, you might want to learn them.
Also Mr. Zelikow never answers the questions straight up. He twists and turns words. Asks for the true definition of "is" really.
"Well, it’s actually highly misleading. Because, of course, if you have the highest value al Qaeda captives in the world for years, anything you get from them is going to be of some use. And a lot of valuable information was obtained. The issue isn’t did we get valuable information from these people. The issue is — were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse? In other words, it’s a comparative evaluation. So when you just say well did we get good information reports from these people and then you get in an argument about that, that’s a sucker’s game. The real issue is to do the comparison and actually a lot of information was available at the time to do an honest comparison that wasn’t used and since then, for example, we’ve been fighting al Qaeda in Iraq for years using methods that comply with international standards in a very effective fight." It's ineffective b/c we got information that was valuable? You know that new paint on your house is ineffective b/c it stops the water from seeping into the wood siding, I mean look at how that water beads up!!!!
There is historical precedent for this type of over reaction. In 1942 the Nisei ( Japanese Americans ) were interred during WW II.
In the aftermath of a calamity, with the 'country' screaming for a plan, Congress panics and you get something like this.
It took over 40 years for 'us' to admit we were wrong. In 1988, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which provided for a formal apology and payments of $20,000 for each survivor.
TW, more than 656,000 service members have died protecting our Constitution and country. That 'bad precedent' you refer to is called the Bill of Rights.
We as Americans enjoy a special kind of freedom, we can pretty much say what we want about our government, travel anywhere with in our borders with out constant harassment. Now we have changed leaders and all of a sudden Americans are horrified at the tactics our military used to keep us this way. Did the terrorists that attacked us on 9 11 apologize to the families who suffered the loss of their love ones: NO, Did they look at their policies and say we were wrong in that action: Hell No, They probably threw a party and notched their belts for all the innocents that were killed. I am so sick and tired of all these fake Americans, if you do not enjoy the freedom given to you and protected by our military, then get the hell out of my country! I say find a terrorist, torture the heck out of them any way you can, because believe me, that terrorist is not thinking of your rights when they place a bomb on a crowed subway, or fly a 747 into an office building. If they don't care about my life why should I care about theirs! Fake Americans Make Me Sick!
More like bad President. The whole point of being 'the good guys' is that we aren't 'the bad guys' and therefore don't do the horrible things, like torture, that make them 'the bad guys.' When we lose sight of that then we lose any right to claim moral superiority.
Zelikow makes a perfect point in mentioning that the prisoners captured could have yielded the same information without torture. But we'll never know, because a decision was made to debase the integrity of our intelligence staff and the integrity of our country by resorting to torture.
And I could be wrong, but isn't torture of criminals, war criminals or otherwise, something that qualifies as a crime against humanity? Or are we just going to forget the nuremburg trials that we were so proud of helping to organize for some other little war a few decades back?
With regards to Zelikow's statement about "mistakes and flawed judgements", he then asks the retorical question "we need to understand how this happened." It happened because the people in charge don't know what they are doing most of the time. The war decisions were bad, the economic decisions were bad, the legal decisions were bad, etc, etc, etc. At least this guy is honest when he say that Cheney is being nothing but misleading with his recent statements. Can't we get some people in office who at least appear to know what they are doing?? Maybe that is just asking too much.
"Those who would trade essential freedoms for a little bit of security deserve neither." B. Franklin
The U.S. has been a country that has stood up against the use of torture in many regimes throughout the world. The basic framework of our country is all people deserve basic freedoms and rights. If you start taking those freedoms and rights from some people, it will only be a matter of time until those rights are stripped from all people. A catholic priest in Nazi Germany once stated that they stood by as persecution spread from group to group until finally when they started to be persecuted, there was no one left to help defend them. That is why it is important to continue to uphold the vision of our forefathers. I was in the military and your life, my life and the life of many, many others is not worth the cost of the principals of this country.
We have to climb back up to be the shining light we were, but we are far better projected by people looking at the United States as a beacon of hope for their own freedom than any security apparatus can ever make us.
Bush and Pelosi knew what they were doing and what they thought was best in the hype of post 911. After analysis I'm sure the Monday-morning quarterbacks will say something else may have worked better. Maybe yes, Maybe No. But its worth exploring rather then the grandstanding and lying to cover their tracks. Apoligizing to terrorist is never justified though nor is trying to implicate that the US caused the terrorist to attack.
Looking backwards it's easy to suggest that there was alternatives available. But when a key terrorist's only answer to your questions regarding future attacks is "just wait, your time is coming" it's very easy to see why this was done. I'm pretty sure that if there had been another attack on US soil after 9-11 as was expected by all, then we would be asking a very different question today and that question might be why didn't we use whatever methods it would take to get the information to stop another attack.
We dropped two atmoic bombs on Japan and fire bombed German cities during WW II. These looking back could be classified as war crimes under today's standards but at the time they saved US lives by hastening the end of the War and were therefore justified.
Looking back with rose colored glasses is easy and cheap and in this case not required.
and eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind
If, during the course of fighting those who would do harm to our nation, we lose sight of who we are and what we stand for, our enemies will have already defeated us, even if we kill every last one of them. Should we forfeit our honor and integrity for some immediate security? If we do so that security will indeed be fleeting. Should we sacrifice our position as a moral leader for the rest of the world? If we do so, the rest of the world will no longer follow us. Each and every one of us should be ashamed, deeply ashamed, that we did not do more to put a stop to this once we learned of it. That is not who we are or what we stand for.
If you study history, and I know that a lot of our schools have been somewhat lax in actually teaching it lately, you will see that the founders of this country fought in large part against this very behavior and our constitution is shaped to prevent it from being allowed. Claiming that a human being does not have rights to those protections is a reprehensible cop-out. The moment you make any human less than human, you can easily make any other human less than human as well.
Shame on all of us for allowing this to happen. Let us strive to make sure that it can not happen again.
It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind. -Voltaire
The argument that we gained info is bogus. I'm sure Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, the VC, and the Japanese gained info when they tortured our boys and others. It doesn't justify it. You can't say you are the beacon of freedom for the rest of the world to follow when you act like the Evil regimes above. Cheney has weakened our country and made us less great because of these actions. In WW2, we treated the Germans and Japenese humanely while they used torture, yet good prevailed.
We as a moral country should interrogate morally. I guess if you are immoral you can get your Attorney General's opinion to back you up and interrogate as you please using any methods available. Hark to the Dark Ages!
What's important is comparison to history. How is what we do to people different from obvious examples of abuse such as Nazi Germany, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
If there are similarities then the action is wrong, no matter the result (unless you believe those dictatorships were right in their methods).
We're better than that but the discussion needs to be had rather than insults and dismissals from both camps – it seems to always boil down to traitor vs. nazi.
Thank you everybody! While I was sitting here trying to form an eloquent response to TW Harris you all trumped me! And I'm happy to see that it isn't just women speaking out against torture.
This nice thing about comments is, any fool can write one (self and previous post included.) First, TW Harris, you don't understand what 'precedent' means. Second, society is built upon rules and civil conduct. One cannot safeguard ethics (safety of society) by prolific unethical conduct (torture). full stop. Third, remember, almost half the folks in this country are of below average intelligence and they are more likely to write comments here.
Isn't that precisely what differentiates a criminal from a law official?
I cant believe what this country does, Clinton was in trouble for sexual acts in the white house. Bush starts a war with thousands of our soldiers killed and 100's of thousands of Iraq's killed. Bush and Cheney authorized everything.. Clinton only screwed 1 person. bush screwed the whole world. Can we get this right? Can we hold people accountable?
Yes, criminals use CRIMINAL tactics. That is what makes them criminals. Why is that so hard to understand?
If you want to live in a civilized country where your property and humanity can not be stripped away from you arbitrarily by the state, you have to make sure your state cannot do those things to anyone. You don't care about this because you have no compassion for people not like you. We swept up thousands of non-enemy, non-criminal Iraqis and Afghanis into this system, and even a few Americans, Canadians and Europeans who we tortured or extradited to be tortured. These people became our enemies. The families and friends of these people became our enemies. And our actual enemies got to say "See, America is no better than the tyrants you already know, and they have no respect for your lives because you are Muslim".
Hundreds if not thousands of American soldiers died because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and all the other dark places we tortured people. These tactics made us less safe.
TW, yes, our police and law endorcement need to be as clean and upright as possible. If we allow or endorse anything less, it is a slippery slope downward, where everyone begins to believe there is no line between right and wrong. The bad precedent is to start allowing/endorsing torture, because it makes us as moarlly bankrupt as the criminals, and if we allow it to go on for awhile, who's to stay where it needs to stop?
TW Harris:
Criminals get prosecuted in court for being "sloppy". Why are the politicians or elite going to walk away untouched from this? Absolutely ridiculous, and a crazy double standard. Karl Rove and "executive privilege"
Secret prisons, secret memos authorizing torture, abuse, hired "contractors" who conduct brutal torture sessions. The last eight years have been Orwellian to say the least. Sounds more like the third reich or stalinist USSR that the USA. Shine the light on these people–hold them accountable for their crimes. Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush are shaking in their hobnailed boots –not because the photos will cause harm to the US. Of course people will become inflamed when they see the evidence of turture. Won't you? They are afraid of EVIDENCE being brought into the light of day that reveals them for who they are....
What this tells me is what many of us have long suspected. Bush and his advisors completely freaked out over 9-11, and over-reacted badly. They were just as scared and witless as Al Queda wanted them to be.
They were like the cops who beat every suspect nearly to death in a cop-killing investigation.
In this sense, Al Queda DID accomplish its goals.
No, Harris, it's not.
We do not torture. Period.
"Enhanced interrogation methods" are ineffective anyway. CNN did a few stories on their effectiveness and it makes a lot of sense.
If you're an Alpha and have been raised your entire life to think that Betas are sub-human, nasty creatures and a Beta captures you and tortures you for information, are you going to talk? Probably not, because you realize that everything you have heard about them is true. It might not ACTUALLY be, but you will now think it to be true for the rest of your life.
However, if you get captured by the Betas and realize that they aren't the monsters you thought them to be, you might begin to open up to them and trust them more, now that you realize that Alphas aren't perfect either.
Two wrongs don't make a right, Mr. Harris
Stop being such pansys and stop living in fear. As they say in NH, Live Free or Die. There is no reason to change our laws and ideals because of fear. That is the real precedent to fear.
Sure, now it was a mistake. It wasn't a mistake when it happened. The politics of the nation changed. The national sense of fear after 9/11/01 has all but been forgotten. Now it is time to CYA.
Don't be a fool. 'Criminals' aren't the ones to be afraid of. Yes the government has to be squeaky clean because they aren't criminals, they have to uphold human rights and civil liberties because if they don't, no one will. I'm amazed at how many adult Americans are willing to let the government do anything to protect us from these "criminals." Get real the crime rate has been dropping for over a decade, and yet our laws are getting more and more repressive. Go read a book. First try On Liberty by John Stuart Mill, next try a history book so you can see what our revolutionary founder died for. Always remember that one of the smartest men ever, and a founding father of our nation said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Thats where we are, so get ready for a world were neither exists.
It's about time that the US start leading by example. You can't say you stand for peace and democracy when you're using physical torture against people suspected of terrorist acts.
TW, so you're saying that abusing someone is ok if it's done in the name of defending our country? That's total BS, we need to set the standard on torture and show the world that we can defend ourselves and our interests without resorting to the nasty and inhumane. I for one think the US is better than that.
If the police/government use the same tactics as criminals then what's the difference between the two groups? It's a great precedent. And get off your high horse about "defending our safety". Come to NYC where I live for a day and you'll realize that we're no "safer" now than 8 years ago.
TW Harris:
You said it correctly: "criminals can be sloppy". We, as in America, are not "criminals". That's why we don't torture or terrorize. We are expected to set the bar, we are above that.
If you think it's okay for America to do this, then we're just the same as the terrorists who do this to us.
CNN needs to stop softening what was done by using phrases like "harsh interrogation tactics." It was torture, it was abuse, it was a violation of U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions, people died from those acts, they were systematic acts, they were known at the top, they were authorized at the top. AND, the leadership of both the Democratic and Republican parties were aware of this and either signed off or looked the other way. I have no confidence in either of these Parties to do what needs to be done: investigate, charge, and prosecute those who broke the law and were responsible for acts of torture. But they can be forced by public pressure to do the right thing. When CNN uses phrases like "harsh interrogation tactics" they make that harder. Shame.
Zelikow: writes, "the issue is — were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse?"
This implies that there were no other techniques used before water-boarding. I can't imagine anyone going strait to water boarding. This is an assumption that I wish Cheney or the CIA would answer.
Therefore, if other cuddly techniques were tried and failed, then this assumption (that many are making) would be telling.
While I would not want to voluntarily experience water boarding myself...many in the armed forces have been water boarded as part of their training, I do not believe that water boarding reaches the definition of torture.
When we stopp to these levels, we lose the qualities that make us great. We were more than happy to rail against other countries during the cold war for their so-called barbarism, but then more than happy to embrace that same barbarism when it's in our interests?
Put another way, the rational offered says that 'we did what we did because we thought it would work, and we couldnt find a better way to do it – even if it was wrong." That very same reasoning could be used to describe suicide bombers in the middle east, or the death camps in nazi germany.
i am sickened by the actions of people who claim to represent the country i love.
We cannot claim to be the beacon of freedom and hope to the world, when we have a dark side to our national character. The world rejects torture.
Unfortunately there are religious zealots who use our government and military as a tool of their religious agenda. They need to be stopped.
Mr. Cheney should Shut the hell up!!
At the Least he is Guilty of Treason!!
Sadly if the U.S.A. thinks it has the right to do what it wants when it wants & how it wants then you have become who you are fighting!!
You are the Enemy!
That would be Very Sad for such a Great Nation!
More testimony by those involved that Dick Cheney lives in his own reality. I just wish that he would go away to the woods and shut up. He is the most dangerous man to America's safety.
To TW Harris – no, it's a very good precedent.
We will never be a civilized race of people until activities such as torture are no longer tolerated by society.
Of course there are other ways to interrogate someone – and no one is immediately sujected to waterboarding. period. Those who are or were waterboarded only underwent such treatment AFTER other methods (presumably similar to those that work on others – as referenced above), failed to obtain info.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I guess one could say, defending or looking for ways to defend the safety of our American people is a mistake. Criminals can be sloppy in the way they kill people but the police and other law enforcement agency must be almost squeeky clean. Bad Precedent!!!