American Morning
Ex-insider: Harsh interrogation tactics were a mistake
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/05/14/intv.zelikow.art.jpg caption= "Philip Zelikow summed up enhanced interrogation methods as a mistake during the first congressional hearings on alleged torture yesterday."]
A former State Department official and Bush White House insider summed up enhanced interrogation methods as a “mistake” during the first congressional hearings on alleged torture yesterday. He called the program a “collective failure” and said both parties share some of the blame.
Philip Zelikow is the man who made those claims. He was executive director of the 9/11 Commission and went on to become counselor to Condoleezza Rice at the State Department. He joined Kiran Chetry on CNN’s “American Morning” Thursday.
Kiran Chetry: You testified yesterday at that congressional hearing that, “The U.S. government adopted an unprecedented program of coolly calculated dehumanizing abuse and physical torment to extract information. This was a mistake, perhaps a disastrous one. It was a collective failure.” When you talk about this as a collective failure, who do you think that much of the blame lies with?
Phillip Zelikow: I think this is one of the things we need to understand better. What happened is the country… a lot of the leaders of the country in both parties believed for a while that they needed to use these methods to protect the nation. They believed that because they thought there were no good alternatives and because they thought this was legal. I think both of those judgments were wrong. We know a lot about alternatives and, in fact, we've now proven that the alternatives work in our own record in Iraq and against al Qaeda worldwide. And I think we've also learned that the legal judgments were flawed too. So we need to understand how our – how our leaders, including the congressional leaders of both parties who were briefed, came to these conclusions that there was no alternative and that this was legal. This was a collective mistake.
Chetry: And the interesting thing about what you're saying is you believe they were largely ineffective. That's a position that Dick Cheney, the former vice president continues to defend. He's saying that these interrogation methods were effective. They didn't violate the law. He says they save lives and the Bush administration successfully defended the nation for 7 1/2 years since 9/11. What do you make of his claims?
Zelikow: Well, it's actually highly misleading. Because, of course, if you have the highest value al Qaeda captives in the world for years, anything you get from them is going to be of some use. And a lot of valuable information was obtained. The issue isn't did we get valuable information from these people. The issue is - were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse? In other words, it's a comparative evaluation. So when you just say well did we get good information reports from these people and then you get in an argument about that, that's a sucker's game. The real issue is to do the comparison and actually a lot of information was available at the time to do an honest comparison that wasn't used and since then, for example, we've been fighting al Qaeda in Iraq for years using methods that comply with international standards in a very effective fight.
Chetry: You had a front seat to some of this. You're a former senior aide to Condoleezza Rice. Why do you think then, if we have history on our side and that there are other methods to get information from people that we capture in the times of war, why do you think this was allowed to happen on our watch in the United States?
Zelikow: First, it’s because of the atmosphere after 9/11; full of crisis and alarms. I had some insight into that atmosphere at the time. And people were fearful about what might happen to the country. Second, you had an agency that came up and said, look, we can develop some new ways that America has never tried before that we think will work and for which there's no alternative. Third, the leaders were told these methods were uniquely effective. And fourth, the Attorney General told the nation's leaders that those methods were legal and several of those judgments, I'm afraid, were deeply flawed and we need to understand how that happens.
Chetry: You wrote in a memo in 2005 challenging the findings in these interrogation memos. You question the legality of the justification for some of the techniques and you said the memo was considered dead on arrival, DOA, and it was actually ordered destroyed. At that point, why didn't you resign or come out publicly about your concerns?
Zelikow: It wasn't just my concerns. I was being joined by my colleagues at the State Department, including Secretary Rice. We were all trying to change the policy and we didn't leave because we were changing the policy. The policies that we had been using for interrogation of prisoners were effectively dismantled by the end of 2005 and actually we brought all of the prisoners out of the black sites and to Guantanamo where they could be brought to justice in an announcement made by President Bush in September 2006. So the policy was being changed and moving us in a healthier direction.
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What good is a free and democratic nation, if it is built upon the torture of individuals, even if we consider them the most despicable, lowest form of life?
I do not support terrorists. I do believe we need to extract information from them to save others.
But to bend our sense of what is right in order to mis-treat anyone is just not our way.
And yes, the way we treated, and still treat, Native Americans, and African Americans (and others), is not the intent of the founding fathers, as hypocritical as they were.
Torture is wrong.
The fact is that America does torture. Anyone who believes otherwise does not know history. Civil war prisoners on both sides were tortured and mistreated. US Marines in the Pacific and GIs in Europe often shot Germans and Japanese rather than take them prisoner. In Europe, whole populations of German towns were made to walk past dead bodies just to rub it in their faces...NVA prisoners were routinely blindfolded, and tortured during the Vietnam War.....Torture is part of war....Let one nation who has not tortured stand up! The Germans? Not...the French? Not....the Russsians? Not!...the Iranians? Not! And now we are supposed to get all worked up because some murderers got water poured on their faces? NOT
So Dale: You're not culpable of torture if your family is at stake, however if other people's families are at stake, well then they had options. Spoken like a true liberal.
Also what most people are argueing here is the "FBI said". Well there was a reason the FBI was replaced in these methods, because they were inept. What information were they getting? I'm seeing a little bit of "revenge" at being replaced here. If you asked a discouraged fired employee what he thinks about his company, you really think he'll give it a glowing reveiw? (Look a metaphor that doesn't involve Nazi's, Racism, or Stalin.... hmm wonder how my point will get across)
Waterboarding does not cause pain. Discomfort sure. Wonder if slowly sawing off ones head like Nick Berg or Mr. Pearl and many others. Or hanging like some of our soldiers were. HUMMMMM! Our military, CIA or whomever have saved lives getting information and thats proven. Obama can release the Memos stating so if he would.
If we did not get information while getting rid of Hitler then how many more millions would he have slain, torchered, maned and the list goes so far on we will never know. Yes War is hell. I served for 14 years and would go back in the military if I was younger. In war we NEED to gather any kind of information we can. NO, we cannot just put a bug or play heavy medal in their cells. It takes alittle more and thats the way it is. People, you need to know we cannot bend over backwards, bow down to the Radical Terrorists Muslims or whoever that want you, your family your friends and your countries heads on a platter. They want this country along with Israel our ally blown off the map. What do you need to get it. Another 911, hitler on the rampage. Them coming to your door, dropping a dirty bomb in the middle of Phoenix or other city. These radicals are brought up with the thought that we are dirty, nasty scum and have no right to be alive PERIOD. Get with it people before its too late. This United States of America needs to remain solverign and we will protect it to the end. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.
Stone (USMC),
My friend you are right!!! We have seen the enemy and the enemy is us!!!
Rob W.: Funny how that also coincides with the Surge!!!! Oh snap, the other side having FACTS!!!
Hey Giovanni
Why don't you try proofreading what you wrote. I happen to have a Masters in History and found your response nonsensical. One basic premise that people do not seem to get is that acting like them makes us like them, undistinguishable. If we claim to have a moral highground, then we should protect it. If we are proud to be as barbaric as our enemies with should declare it without hypocrisy, but we should not try to have it both ways.
Hey Aaron let's not call terrorists "Freedom Fighters" or "Muslim Extremists" let's call them what they are terrorists.
Once again... am American who is alive because of the techniques utilized by President Bush. I'm getting tired of watching everybody whose lives continue on because of the methods used by Bush, yet they continue to bash him.
I am so heartily sick and tired of reading the comments of people who are “Shocked,” and “Appalled,” at the “Barbaric Techniques” utilized by the “agents and contractors” of our government. People need to wake up and realize that the world as we know it HAS changed. We can’t presume to go back to the way that things once were. Our “Founding Fathers”, lucky for them, couldn’t possibly begin to fathom the world that we are faced with today. I agree that torture techniques have hardened our enemy against us, but I would rather harden the enemy, and subsequently CRUSH them, rather than our great nation become a left-minded, group of people with their collective heads stuck in the sand, who can’t imagine the concept of becoming brutal with a people who have no compunctions about blowing away civilians regardless of their age, sex, color, creed, or nationality.
War fatigue is one thing, but this “Great Nation” that we like to call ourselves, in the last few years has not been so great. You can’t simply blame Bush or Cheney, Rumsfeld, or whoever else for the ills that plague us. We like to tout ourselves as being so “civilized,” but it’s that very civility that makes our enemies perceive us as weak. Our enemies have to see this Nation as one that, yes abides by rules, but they also have to know that if we are pushed beyond a certain point, (the point where rules no longer apply), to do that with us would lead to results so awful, that no one would ever want to push us to that point again. The problem is that our “great nation” is a muddled mess comprised of so many people who have never served a DAY in the defense of their Country, but are more than happy to bask in its freedoms, lap up its luxuries, and then have the audacity to bad mouth its policies without having a clue themselves as to how to fix it’s problems.
I’ve heard the word “Orwellian” and “Police State” used to describe us. It’s a frightening concept to your average person, but we can’t simply stay the “Open Door” Country we once were. If we stay that way – other countries who hate us will take that openness, and use it to hurt us.
We have to accept that torture, unfortunately, has a place in this world. The countries that hate us are more than willing to use it to further their ends. We need to loosen the reigns on our Intelligence Agencies, and give them the operational freedom to do the things that need to be done, without having oversight from people who apparently have Rose-Tinted glasses stapled to their faces. And we need to cease media coverage for everything that happens … sometimes ignorance for the masses equals collective bliss for the country. I’m sorry, but your average American just wants to live in a happy dream world painted in fluffy-pastel colors. It’s better that those type of people are kept in the dark, while the few select people, who truly keep this Nation safe, do their jobs out of the spotlight of the unenlightened many.
Hey Larry: Nice try.
1. The Jewish people were considered civilians (even though the Geneva convention did not exist) that did not take up arms. So they were truely non-combatants, and today would fall under that part of the Geneva convention.
2. I'm arguing with the people that say that these people were POWs, and hence should be treated under the Geneva Convention. So I was pointing out there falacies in arguement, not that the people should be tortured.
3. So since I say it's ok to water board a terrorist who is killing many innocent lives (not just our troops), that I'm also in support of the Holocaust. WOW what a leap, even for a wacked out liberal.
4. You're a tool.
Under Bush/Cheney this was just one of soooooooooooooooooooo many "mistakes". Is there no wonder people the WORLD over truly dislike GOP'ers & Bush/Cheney?
I don't want to hear anything from anyone about "waterboarding" that hasn't Googled "beheading", "stoning" or "female mutilation". Torture my a$$.
Logic: Where in ARticle 4 does it state that these people would be deemed POWs? No where.
Voice of Reason you make the comment that very same reasoning could be used to describe suicide bombers in the Middle East, or the death camps in Nazi Germany.
You are further from the truth than the moon from earth. Suicide bombers kill innocent people to further their cause and get a shock & fear reaction. The Nazi killed the Jews for Genocidal purposes. Water boarding a known Terrorist suspect is nothing close to that. My son has gone through Special Forces training and believe me they beat the hell out of those boys during training and not one of them goes and whines to mommy about it. They take it because they know that if they get captured they will have to die before talking. Most of you people don’t even begin to realize how much good information is gotten out of the Jihad loving scum’s of the earth who’s soul goal in life it to kill Americans. And believe me when Crap hits the fan again which it will they aren’t going to separate the ones who don’t like them from all of you who think a group hug and playing nice it going to fix it.
Momar Kadfi made the comment a few years back saying the Allah is great and with in 50 years we will have beaten the west with out raising a single sword. He is talking about the demographics of the Islamic movement and the infiltration of our countries by breading us out. Personally I feel sorry for my grandchildren and their children.
Morality only when convenient = Hypocrite
Last I checked, people tend to not pay a whole lot of positive attention to hypocrites when they reprimand other people based on grounds of morality.
Funny coincidence that the tide turned in the war in Iraq once the harsh interrogations stopped (2006).
I thought the bill of rights were written for Americans. They were not given to indians or slaves AT THE TIME WRITTEN, so HOW can you presume they were meant for the terrorists today who want to destroy our country and every American ?
These are people that want to change Laws just to justify the current position they hold at the time. If we are attacked or a member of their family was killed by these terrorists, they would be the first to demand any form of violence including torture.
My ancestors were killed by real terrorists during ww2 and you people would have lost us that war with your idealists theories.
Everytime this subject comes up, the message boards light up with the naive, the self-righteous and down right liberal flakes with no ability to understand nuance or to differentiate raw torture and harsher interrogation. The mentality of our leftist media influenced population is just sad. But i guess it explains the nanny-in-chief we have in DC – sell naive utopian visions and that nasty real world of good and evil, competition and self-responsibility goes away. Everyone, put your blinders on and crawl back into the womb!
To 1stSgt Baggett's comment:
"Before this whinning gets to far out of hand, take a look back into what has happened to our captured Troops from Somalia forward. "
Exactly. As a former soldier, I had hoped that we Americans would always be able to distinguish ourselves from other rogue elements in the world by our rectitude; our conduct.
It is terribly disappointing and unsettling to learn otherwise. Those involved in the sanctioning of these "enhanced interrogation methods" have truly dishonored every American that has donned a uniform.
"win if possible, integrity at all costs"
- John Wooden, UCLA basketball coach
this quote was mentioned in last nights game 7 between Pittsburgh Penguins & Washington Capitals, where the Pittsburgh coach is a disciple of John Wooden. Pittsburgh won.
As traditional Chinese wisdom goes, apply enough bodily pain to a suspect, and he/she will confess to anything you want to hear, even if the confession leads to a quick and clean death sentence for the entire clan. And if you are asking for accomplices? Well, then, anybody goes.
During the old dynasties, applying physical pain was perfectly legal and normal in order to extract confessions. So there were many folk tales detailing innocent people confessing after being subjected to stuff ranging from being beaten to a bloody pulp to having the fingers squeezed so hard that they broke. And of course, since the Heavens always knew everything, you'd then get snow flurries in the middle of summer or long periods of drought. In the end, regardless of whether the wrongfully indicted suspect would live to see the light of day again, these stories would always end with the bad/incompetent/cruel official being either punished by the higher-ups or by the Heavens, and leaving behind a disgraced name ever after.
These folk tales speak volumes about how the average Chinese in the old days, whose conventional wisdom also included "commoners do not fight against officials," perceived torture as used by government officials. Were those who confessed under physical pain always innocent? Were the accomplices they gave up always just innocent I-happened-to-know-his-name bystanders? There would be stories of people who purposely gave up names after being subjected to such treatment just because they were trying to frame people and wanted to make it look more believable. The point is, if you were an official who believed in such methods, then how would you know? After all, we see what we want to see, and if all else fails, you could always just beat the "accomplice" to a bloody pulp to have him confess.
If you believed that country/God were on your side, and were out to reach a goal regardless of the means, then what would stop you from bringing harm to the very people you were supposed to protect?
Shouldn't we know better?
Stewey,
Take your founding fathers bologna and eat it. Do you think all of the people who opressed the african americans for hundreds of years were true patriots? Do you think that the abusive interrogations by our own police forces are the acts of true patriots??? Before you bring your founding father and patriot b.s into this chat, why dont you worry about our own american people, George Washington would spit in your face if he heard you put the human rights of these extremists before your own people. You don't deserve to be a citizen of this great country.
In America, we do not allow confessions in court obtained under torture and there is a reason. Under torture, you will admit to anything, say anything to stop the pain. How many innocent people in America have confessed to horrible crimes, including murder, after the confession was beaten out of them. Senator McCain confessed to being a war criminal in Vietnam.
During the Spanish Inquisition, which is where water-boarding originated, people would confess to being friends with Satan, knowing that if they admitted that, they would be executed.
We should not torture, not just because it's wrong and illegal, but because when being tortured, you will say anything, admit to anything, to stop the pain
It takes a theif to catch a theif.
And you need to be a bit of a thug to confront a thug.
Take down the white flag, take off the gloves and get down and dirty with these low lifes.
The 'world' doesn't reject torture – at least 25% practice 'harsh techniques'. The Brits did in Northern Ireland only a few years ago.
Go to a Mexican jail and tell me there is justice in North America!
Hell, name one Middle East country (bar Israel) with a functioning democracy. They're all hypocritical losers.
We're in a fight people – it ugly sometimes so get used to it.
If you think America is the good guys try ambling through any inner city with anything shiney showing. Until everyone and everything is one shade of something except white there will always be the slavery thing. Socialism has created a monster that feeds on the working class until there is nothing left. Until everything is stolen, snorted, injected or spent on Social programs we will continue to have problems. I say make all drugs legal, feed them drugs for free till they croak and start another generation if there is any breeding stock left with an unfried brain. Probably be a world without people because most are too sorry to be a mother or father on purpose. It is chic to not take on the responsibility of a family now just manufacture them and let the state take care of them.
I'm a HUGE supporter of the tv show 24...loved President Palmer and dig President Taylor! Jack Bauer's skill set should be used on exclusive matters...not generalized.
The past administration raised the red flag on everything...from creating a visual threat level display to creating confusion amongst themselves that trickled down to the American people.
What better time to insert "uniquely effective methods" on any front...wire taping your phone, reading your e-mail, WMD, "Mission Accomplished", hiring Enron executives AFTER their scam fell apart, flying Bin Laden's family out of the country AFTER 9/11 happened.
The past administration seemed to deem a lot of its activities as "legal"...huh?
The previous administration lived in the mindset of Nixon during the Frost Nixon interview:
David Frost: Are you really saying the President can do something illegal?
Richard Nixon: I'm saying that when the President does it, that means it's *not* illegal!
David Frost: ...I'm sorry?
Sadly, some things recycle themselves. Does it really matter what side of the isle I set on?
I thank all those in the Bush adminstration for doing whatever it took to protect innocent Americans for nearly 8 years. Unfortunately, Pelosi and he new Dems have put us all at incredible risk.
how many of you whiney liberals would love to torture a terrorist if they had your loved ones held as hostages or threaten to kill the ones you love. How many of you would wish we would torture terrorist if you were the one being held captive and didn't know if the breath you just took was your last one – how many of you would then want us to find you and save you. It's so easy to be high and mighty from the side lines! You keep forgetting these people intentionally killed civilians – innocent men, women and children in the 9/11 attacks. You really need to watch the footage of that horrible day! they live for one reason – to kill Americans. If a little water got pertinent information out of just one of them (and the documents released prove it did!) then I say Hooray for our Military!!
There is torture and there is TORTURE . I see comparisons of what our government did to Nazi Germany, Taliban ,Japan, They knew how to torture we only played mind games .
They used bamboo under nails, They burned hot branding irons in flesh, They cut off fingers. They starved, that is real torture.They killed.
I see comparisons with terrorists and every day crimanials. Some think these terrorists should be treated like a pickpocket,or a DUI. They should have a therapist session 3 times a week and given probation for 1 year. They should get a $500. ticket and their drivers license suspended maybe.
Do you people really beleive the CIA or the FBI couldn't tell between a lie and the truth when interagating these mis-understood killers?
I agree! We really should have asked the terrorists nicely who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Perhaps, even now, it might not be too late to ask them nicely to lay down their weapons and stop killing people, hiding behind civilians, and plotting the death of as many Americans as possible.
You ever have one of those "I can't believe I never thought of that" moments?
Pelosi acted like a scared rat this morning. It is disgraceful to see her standing in front of the American flag. She has such selective memory and why would you send a staffer to such an important meeting? One way ticket to SF
Too much BS. Next time 911 happens, lets all take it and stay at home. And wait for more, unless of course,we comply with the request of all that harms us. That is the alternative being questioned here,is it not?
Seems we are not defining the problem correctly. Those who assert, that torture is unacceptable under any circumstance are not being very thoughtful. Would they feel the same way if the choice was between saving their own child, or using torture to stop the self confessed perpratrator. Will they honestly sit by and sanction the murder of their own child, while the person who has confessed to causing the potential harm is able to sit there laughing. I don't believe it! At the same time, there is no doubt that using torture on every suspect is NOT acceptable. But that is not what we are debating here.
We are not talking here about people who claim innocence. These individuals are caught on the battle field, they were actively engaged in trying to cause harm, and there is significant evidence to suggest they know more than they are revealing.
For those who would equate the government using torture on combatants, to the terrorist suicide bombings, I would point out, that a surgeon cuts your chest to save your life, while a butcher cuts your chest to murder you. The action is the same, while the desired outcome is quite different. Our government is using torture ONLY on self proclaimed enemies to save lives. The suicide bomber is trying to destroy lives in order to cause terror in his enemies.
It's kind of like saying that the Nazi's drank wine, and we drink wine, so there is a little bit of Nazi's in all of us. An action taken by our enemies, does not equate us or make us in to our enemies if we take the same action.
I see torture in a limited way deployed by our government on a well defined combatant profile as perfectly reasonable way to deal with the challenges we face.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/07/15/hersh/index.html
The waterboarding issue is just the beginning of the story of our abuse. See above link.
With all the bleeding hearts commenting on this board, God help this country.
If dismembering those dirt bags saved one American life, it would be worth it. With all the tears being shed for the terroists on this board, this country is doomed.
To Dear Anonymous:
Since if you get your way in ten years I'll be living in the United States of Iraq I'm more worried about you. The terrorists are already here and they are every person here arguing that torturing people is justifiable. Hmmm... what's next? Cutting off hands if someone steals? This all sounds vaguely familiar... I wonder why...? Oh yeah weren't you all here during Nazi Germany too? When rounding up the "enemy" and putting them in camps was all the rage? You ain't my Mom. My Mom taught me principles and morals.
Ultimately, saying the ends justifies the means – information garnered from torture justifies the torture – is faulty logic, and will more often than not fail in practical use. What is an acceptable ratio of unsuccessful to successful torture sessions? Isn't this logic the same that the terrorists use to justify THEIR horrific actions? As a society, we must accept the risks associated with freedom. Yes – we would all be horrified and willing to do anything to protect a family member from harm – and that is precisely why we have a dispassionate third party in charge of enforcing crime and punishment. Otherwise the eye-for-an-eye logic used by pro-torture folks to justify treatment of suspected terrorists will spill over into all law enforcement, society at large, and that eye-for-an-eye vengeance-based society is what spawned these middle-east terrorists in the first place.
"The issue isn’t did we get valuable information from these people. The issue is — were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse? In other words, it’s a comparative evaluation. So when you just say well did we get good information reports from these people and then you get in an argument about that, that’s a sucker’s game. The real issue is to do the comparison and actually a lot of information was available at the time to do an honest comparison that wasn’t used and since then, for example, we’ve been fighting al Qaeda in Iraq for years using methods that comply with international standards in a very effective fight."
And Zelikow then gets into his own sucker's game. you cannot say that highly placed Al-Qaeda operatives would be as susceptible to the same tactics used on AQ foot soldiers in Iraq. The higher up you are the more training you get in resisting such tactics. Not to mention Selikow cannot actually say with any certainty that our successes against AQ in iraq come from solely for the soft interrogation of AQ suspects and in fact probably has more to do with the Iraqi people's hatred of AQ, and turning in intel on AQ, then anything we do with the peons we capture who belong to Al Qaeda in Iraq.
Correction to my last comment...
"Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that not only would this type of behavior be tolerated in this country, but American citizens should also not participate in such behavior."
Should read:
Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that not only would this type of behavior NOT be tolerated in this country, but American citizens should also not participate in such behavior.
The use of torture to protect our freedom, is not representative of the type of freedom our country was founded on.
There is a reason why the bill of rights was included in our constitution.
Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that not only would this type of behavior be tolerated in this country, but American citizens should also not participate in such behavior.
To think that we are the only people on earth to reap the benefits of the intent of our founding fathers, is repugnant and shameful.
On one hand, the Bush administration wanted to spread democracy throughout the world, but on the other hand, they wanted to restrict the benefits of democracy to non-citizens by torturing them.
A true patriot would not take part in this type of behavior.
To Worried Moderate
So if you are that certain that it is required and all those against are wrong...why arent you an E man?
I agree with the Pirate!! Let me ask this question to all Americans. These terrorists strap mega explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up in the middle of a bunch of people with ZERO consideration for collateral damage and all the innocent women and children that will be slaughtered. The same people behead human beings alive in the name of Islam. Why should we as a people have any consideration for any one who acts in this method of random, indiscriminate carnage?????? If they are going to blow them selves up anyway into a billion pieces then, is it not fair to say that you cannot abuse people of this kind because of their intentions against mankind and the horrific methods employed?????? America, lets get our common sense back and start supporting our country and our leaders!!!! STOP THE POLITICING AND THINK OF OUR SECURITY!!!
This is not about our personal opinions on "if" and "when" to torture.
This is very simple.
The U.S. has agreed to follow the Geneva Conventions.
Period.
Read them.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
Hey Anonymous,
You are everything that is wrong with this country today. I have no respect for your passivist opinion. If one of your family members was in captivity over seas in the custody of these heathons, you would change your little girl opinion really quick. Stop letting the new administration brainwash you. When this war makes it on to American soil in the next 10 years, because of how weak our new administration has made us in 100 some odd days, I really hope that you eat your words.
Sincerely,
Your MOM
Wow, I'm amazed that people think you can get info from religious fanatics by asking nicely. Sadly we need another attack here to remind people that we are at war with an enemy that has no principles. If you want to be principled and dead be my guest. People mention things they would die for, well I also know of things I would kill or torture for. If that makes me as bad as the enemy so be it. I'd rather be alive and "unprincipled" than dead and righteous.
9/11 has been forgotten, Terrorists chopping off heads on film have been forgotten. 3000 civilians dead have been forgotten. All the dead american soldiers in Iraq aqnd Aghanistan are forgotten. The TERRORISTS in GITMO are just misunderstood crimanals and all we need to do is rehabilatate them . There parents ignored them.
We need to give them ice cream and candy and they will stop killing us and tell us anything we want.
When we are attacked again, which will probably happen because of all of you good people have been protected and now feel safe enough to be forgiving to these terrorists. Your memories are short-lived.
We felt this safe before 9/11 , remember? No you don't or you would not be so quick to soften our stance on defending our country.
The leading Arab-American interrogator of terrorists for the FBI testified yesterday that the United States lost valuable intelligence after the FBI was replaced with "contractors" to torture leading Al Quada suspects. The FBI subsequently had a complete break with the CIA over the latter's use of torture and even removed all agents from Guantonamo over their disgust with the uselessness and brutality of torture tactics developed by an administration of chickenhawks. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the entire United States military establishment, John McCain Lindsey Graham and any other Republican who actually served in the military also opposed the Bush torture program for the harm it caused the United States and the enormous benefits it conferred on Al Quada
Since "please" doesn't work anymore, we have to find ways to get information from terrorists. Maybe we should let them attack us since we don't want that information bad enough.
Pelosi did a great thing by allowing water boarding which led to the discovery of a terror cell in CA. The FBI was able to stop this attack just as it was moving into its final stages. But, who cares, right!!
To those of you backing torture as a method to obtaining information you are quite simply idiots and immoral to boot. I wonder if the government picked you up thinking for some reason (and trust me governments and the police make mistakes especially when they are relying on neighbors turning on neighbors) you had vital information and then tortured you if you would think this was an effective method of extracting information. Even if you forget the immorality of torture it's a totally ineffective method of gathering information. People who are tortured will tell you ANYTHING to stop the torture. You are also assuming that the people torturing are infallible in their opinion of who is "guilty" with no due process.... I seriously cannot believe what this country became during that time period. I'm disgusted.
We need to begin the long painful legal process of investigations,grand juries,indictments and trials.It's the only way that we can prove to ourselves and to the world that our government is based on laws and that justice is there for all. Much of what happened was done out of fear. We should let qualified juries decide if laws were broken.
Apparently some people still don't get it. If I had to torture someone to save my child, I would do it. But would not be culpable– it is done under duress so the argument is irrelevant. The Bush administration was not forced to torture– they chose to. There were other alternatives. Torture is far from the most effective intelligence-gathering method. Tortured prisoners will make up anything, say anything you want whether it was true or not. You can't separate the true stuff from the other stuff. Even if it did work perfectly, torturing prisoners makes us the same as the other bad guys. So anyone reading this that is advocating torture, don't you EVER think you are any better than the Nazis, North Korea, al Queda, etc because you are no better than them. If the US claims to be a beacon of higher standards, then let us act like it.
I'm hearing a lot of arguments along the lines of "i guess torture is okay, some of the times."
I feel like i'm reading Animal Farm when I read some of these posts. Torture is not American. Terrorists use torture because they're the bad guys. We do the same, we become the bad guys too.
Very simply put, the authorities in this country MUST be held to a higher standard. Police and law enforcement are already mistrusted by a large segment of society even though the vast majority of them are honorable and upright defenders of the law. Of tens of thousands of daily arrests and police interventions, it only takes ONE misstep to cast a pall on the entire force. The same applies to CIA and FBI. I wonder how all the pro-torture folks will feel if they ever end up on the watch lists? What if your drinking buddy turns out to have a friend who is a terrorist? And they take a picture of you having a drink in a bar together. When you get hauled in, held without trial and tortured for info about your "association" – how will you feel about it then. Torture of "really bad people" seems like a good idea on the surface, but who gets to decide who these really bad people are? How can we be sure they get it right? And what if one of these really bad people starts naming innocents as accomplices? You do the math.
The purpose of torture is to scare the Arab/Muslim Amercians from talking. From saying things like:
1- The equivalent of the destruction that we inflicted on Iraq is (a) 20 million Americans dead, (b) 40 millions Americans homeless, (c) At least 20 millions Amercian refugees outside the USA.
2- NO 20 or 100 Arabs with a million dollar can pull 9/11 off, unless the Mosad, the CIA, the FBI wants them to.
3- etc.
To Matthew Kilburn
That is flawed logic I'm afraid.
There is no indication that other methods failed.
However, if they suspected more information could be obtained then those methods could be used whether there was anything else or not. The mere suspicion of more could have been enough to use waterboarding.
Tough Topic, as I see the rationale on both sides.
Absolutely torture or "harsh techiques" degrade those who participate in them, however if waterboarding some guy resulted in him spilling the fact that 19 people would board planes and ram them into buildings 8 years ago, it'd be hard to criticize. One guy's discomfort against 3000 American lives...do the math.
In regards to "being just like the bad guys"...here's the difference...They attack and kill innocent people, while we "harshly treat" murderers and plotters. They stop blowing up people at weddings and they wouldn't find them selves in Gitmo (or wherever they send these criminals now)
What people are failing to realize is that war has changed; we are now dealing with rogue organizations. The same ones that behead people. Do you honestly think for a minute that any Al Qaeda or similar group has a list of torture do's and dont's? The answer is no! War is not pretty and it is not fair, and sometimes you have to take drastic measures whether you like it or not.
I would like to say that I was in the Army about 20 years ago. I think torture is wrong and anyone that condoned it in the Chain-Of-Command should be charged with war crimes and brought to justice.
As an Ex-Military person I think we should have Zero Tolerance for everyone in the chain of command including the President, his staff, the Congressional Defense and Intelligence committees, the CIA, and also the General and their subordinate commanders.
Throw them all in prison as war criminals.
Philip Zelikow might be paid by ACLU or an ACLU underground
We have encountered the enemy. The enemy is ourselves...
@ The Ranger May 14th, 2009 12:31 pm ET
The Iraq war was fueled by false information from a tortured terrorist. For that, over 4,300 Americans lost their lives following their pledge to fight all enemies foreign and domestic. As I go to the VA hospital regularly for mental illness, and physical therapy I wish I gained these injuries fighting our true proven enemies in Afghanistan, instead of fighting someone who was defending their home, and rights no matter how small they were before we got there. Remember your Army values if your name on this blog is true to your training!
Hats off to all my fellow brethren still in harms way!
To TW Harris
By your way of thinking we should just go out and hire other criminals to kill the people you say are bad. Sounds like the golden rule let he who has the most gold make the rules.
As a State Department official, how is he an insider to waterboarding and enhanced intterrogation techniques? He is a diplomat. He did not draft memos, formulate policy, participate in the interrogations, never served in uniform, was never a spy. In what way is he an insider?
A shameful practice from a nation that was one of the main architects of the Geneva Conventions. Also, we don't torture serial murderers in the U.S. if they refuse to confess. Now why do you think that is?
Once again, just as with Ms. Pelosi, we must ask – where WAS this "courageous" defender of "human rights" back in 2002 when these interrogation methods were reviewed, Congressional leaders briefed, and all parties concerned Agreed they were NECESSARY, LEGAL, and PRUDENT?
Where was he?
The nazi's tortured, it was horrible, they were horrible, we went to war. The japanese tortured, it was horrible, they were horrible, we went to war. Sadaam Hussein, the bad man, tortured, we went to war. So lets do the same thing, right? What sets up apart from the others, we don't torture, we believe in all human beings rights no matter how evil they are. There are better ways to get information, just ask the people who are experts at this kind of thing. Torture doesn't work, it's inhuman, it's against the law. If Cheney and Bush authorized it, as Cheney now proudly admits on TV (and by the way this information can be used as evidence against him and Bush), then Cheney and Bush should be prosecuted.
It's easy to be critical if you have a fundamental understanding of right and wrong. Unfortunately, every single official who signed off on the legality, necessity, and efficiency of these "enhanced interrogation" techniques proved themselves to be totally unfit to lead in any capacity as they are incapable of discerning right or wrong.
I spent 22 years in the military and was very plainly taught what was considered torture, and that there was no one, sergeant, lieutenant, general, or president, who could give a legal order to use it.
Ergo, every so-called legal expert who advised that these techniques were permissible under their twisted interpretation of the law is an accomplice to a conspiracy to commit torture and should be tried and punished. All uniformed military members involved with the decision to use these methods should be court-martialed and punished. Former President Bush and former VP Cheney are too late to be impreached; but they can be taken to court and punished as international war criminals. For the non-military intelligence agencies, civil statutes against torture should be charged against them and appropriate sentences handed down.
As far as the so-called valuable information that Richard Cheney claims was extracted under these techniques; he's a bald-faced liar. None of the information was reliable. None of the information was of time-critical importance. None of the information was unobtainable by other known, evidence-based, clearly legal, human methods.
Point to remember. The invocation of national security by members of the G.W. Bush administration is not to protect the country, but to protect the members of that administration from justice and the consequences of their behavior.
Let's not call torture "harsh interrogations" please, let's call it torture.
Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice and Rumsfeld are criminals and should be arrested and tried as such. 9/11 was horrible, I know, I watched it take place from my window. But Osama Bin Laden didn't destroy our country, Bush and Cheney did! They bankrupted our country both financially and morally. Rove, Rice and Rumsfeld are just as guilty. The Executive branch is 100% responsible for what took place under the Bush administration—Stop blaming Congress! Let's put Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice and Rumsfeld in jail!
Agree with Tom, everyone objects to interrogation methods, regardless if they work or not, on principle alone. In the real world, where you need factual intelligence and you need it quick, you do what you have to. And, proper interrogatoin techniques have always produced credible data. The core of interrogation is fear, and not the kind of fear of being locked up, having women strip in front of you or having pork shops waved in your face. A proper interrogation method entails real fear of your own well being or if you do not care about that, someone you DO care about
If anyone thinks war can be fought in a church social atmosphere they are not living in reality. We have lost over 5000 men killed and thousands maimed. If one of our American soldier was saved it was right. We should practice the same Geneva convention rules our opponents do. We are going to lose many many more in the "just " war in Afghanistan. I would like to know what the hell is the difference in this one and the one in Iraq. Have you noticed you hear very little about the ones killed now in Afghanistan or Iraq. New Pres, new power, media control which makes it all right. He has the power (voters gave it to him) to pull our troops from every country of the world right now but not the gonads that a good leader like George Bush had. We should bring back the draft and draft all the MOnday morning quarterbacks first .
There is so many comments without any intelligence and no common sense. I did not realize there are so many people willing to give their lives to anyone that wants to cut off their heads. It seems strange that all of these people are commenting . . . it they really believe what they are saying, they should go to another country where beheading is common. If there shoul be no punishment for evil acts, then move to the areas that you can all be really big heros.
As usual, people speak without having all the facts. You guys just hate and that makes you blind. We initiated those interrogation techniques after other interrogation methods had been used and failed. The enemy was plotting more attacks against the US and the WEST long before 911. They were succesful. London, Madrid. Bali, Embassies everywhere (not only US),WTC in the 90's, and so on. My friends, its a long list. The enemy studied VietNam and USSR in Afghanistan. They were clever and we were naive because we did not want to do what it took to defeat this new threat. Our leadership has to walk a tight rope when it comes to be viewed as an aceptable partner in the global stage. We have made mistakes, but ALWAYS remember, they hated us first. We are just doing what we have to do.
If Cheney doesn't think waterboarding is torture, I say we use it on him and GWB to get the truth about who ordered the manufactured evidence on WMDs and all the other treasonous lies their administration told.
those who think othwerwise are hypocritics, when the opposition behead soldiers, we look at it in awe and belief
Regarding TW Harris's post:
"...Criminals can be sloppy in the way they kill people but the police and other law enforcement agency must be almost squeeky clean. Bad Precedent!!!"
We (our police, agents, military, etc.,) are supposed to be *better* than these criminals, terrorists, enemy soldiers, etc. – since those people use such tactics against us, if we do the same back then we're just as bad.
Like it or not, in a lot of respects we have to fight with one hand tied behind our backs because a better society is *supposed* to show RESTRAINT in exacting justice – which is what keeps it from being petty vengeance. Morals and ethics aren't truly important until they're inconvenient to be practiced – by still practicing them, even under the worst circumstances, we prove that we're better.
Hey Steve you can't be that dumb...if history will always be re0written by whomever wins the war. The ruling people in this case the Anglo Saxon man has dominated the earth for the last couple of centuries but eventually when your turn is up cause you have to realize those dirty Arabs controlled the world for almost 1300 years but we changed the facts just as the Chinese or whoomever becomes dominant after the infighting begins and we destroy ourshelve...that's why i keep telling you idiots to learn history....imagine Hitler read history and didn't make the same mistake Napoleon did....he would have been the world super power...most of the weapons the US has now comes from the German scientist that the US stole from Germany and let's not forget Prescott Bush helping the Nazi's....To bad we never learn
I understand the mentality right after September 11th. People were scared. How did this happen to us? Will it happen to us again? Then fear turned to anger. People wanted to hurt those who had hurt the United States. People became blinded by rage and no longer cared whether the damage inflicted on the enemy was within the guidelines set up by the Geneva Conventions or even the rules of engagement; because a lot of rules go out the door in a time of war. They just wanted someone to pay. The majority of people became a lot more agreeable to the idea of looking the other way, of giving the President a lot of free reign because they trusted his judgement. The president had a 90% approval rating at the time.
Now people are in a reflective stage. Now people are feeling guilty. There is only one way to make something that feels wrong feel right. A person has to rationalize so as to make what they did justifiable. Torture is wrong, just as killing is. Yet soldiers do it every day in the name of duty and country. Why do you think so many come back with PSTD? It is hard to rectify and reconcile with their own brains that the killing served some larger purpose. If a person grows up with the mentality that killing is wrong or torturing is wrong...that is not something that can be erased by a few months of training. It is a psychological mess. Cheney has to believe that what he did was right for his own minds sake or else he will go crazy.
I think Mr. Zelikow is being too charitable. There were people in the Bush administration who had the Patriot Act months before 9/11. They are the same ones who believe force is the only way to show strength.
All this takl about 7 1/2 year of no terrorist attacks on American soil overlooks some important facts:
1. The Clinton administration began developing an office to address the terrorist issue. They launched drones at terrorist leaders and destroyed facilities in Africa. None of these were supported by congressional rebulicans who were only interested in framing a democratic president.
2. This effort was closed down when the Bush Administration came into office because they were focused on Iraq.
3. "Bin Laden Determined to Attack US"
4. 9/11
The republican defense strategies bring nothing to the table. They were corrupt and ineffective when it counted, then when the horse was out of the barn, they proceeded to destroy America's heart and soul.
What I don't understand is if the enhance techniques were successful and the CIA wrung every bit of information outta the "terrorists" and/or "enemy combatants", why didn't the CIA just kill them afterwards and bury them somewhere?
If the CIA is going to resort to these uncivilized interogation tactics, go the full route and dispose of those who are no longer useful.
Why clog up the prisons or the judical system with enemies of the state?
Al Queda, Taliban and radical Islamics seem to have no trouble doing this. The CIA should be able to beat them at their own game, I would think.
Okay, you torture a prisoner, and he confesses that they're planning to bomb, say, the Golden Gate Bridge, then we send military to guard the bridge and nothing happens. Was the prisoner lying to stop the torture or did the torture help protect America? I know how Cheney would answer that question.
What are these supposed other ways of interrogation I keep hearing about? I would like to know if these other ways are and why are not other countries using them. If they are so effective why have we not heard about them. At least MCcain and Pelosi can agree on something.
I hope this makes it to the comments......Everyone on this board is trying so hard to be moral, philosphical and peaceful. Our world is not based on peace. Our country has NEVER been based on peace. Get real. This whole situation was put into place way before two planes hit the World Trade Center. Bin Laden was pissed that we weren't going to back his expensive habits and the world had to pay for his tantrum. We needed to succesfully desensitize his brainwashing and shrink his powerful hold over his 'followers,' but he uses his religion to puff up his plight. What a freakin' coward! I wonder why he hasn't come forward to claim his martyrdom – wouldn't that strengthen his cause? The problem is that he has no cause – he's just a drug-addicted child convincing the oppressed that he's right and everyone else in the world is wrong. In the meantime, innocent people are being blown to pieces and we're arguing about a war technique that, by the way, has never killed anyone. What about the people still being tortured by those we let go? Is everyone that blind to what's going on?
People need to have tolerance – that's what will bring peace. As the world stands right now, what is there that gives us hope? With all due respect, it isn't any government leader. They're just trying to keep everyone happy. It's within ourselves and no one can make it happen except for us. That's psychology 101, folks – take it or not – it's up to you.
Zelikow et al are still guilty of crimes against humanity. You can't defend your continued involvement by working within the organization to stop torture. You must leave at the first opportunity that your life is not in danger, his never was. see Nuremberg.
Why can't they just slip these people LSD? Wasn't that the simple truth serum created for that fact?
Each and everyone of you are hypocrites! If you family was kidnapped and held with life being threatened and you caught the criminal. You would do anything in your power to bring your children home, including waterboarding. If you doubt this you are flat out lieing to yourself!
There is a reason that we don't send detainees back to their country of origin. The reason is that we fear that they may tortured back home. I mean, why send them home to get tortured when we can just do it ourselves.
The highest American ideals have always been liberty and justice. Safety is a feeling, not an ideal. Only a coward chooses a safe society over a just society.
HUMANITY HAS NEVER BEEN CIVILIZED AND NEVER WILL. THERE ARE TO MANY KANE'S AND NOT ENOUGH ABEL'S. AND WE ALL KNOW THE ANCESTORS OF THE KANE'S CAME FROM THE CAUCAS MOUNTAIN REGION WHO TRAVELLED TO IRAN AND MIXED WITH THE NATIVE PEOPLE RESULTING IN THE FIRST ARYANS UNITL THEY MIGRATED TO INDIA IN 3000 BC AND CREATED THE CASTE SYSTEM...THE ORIGINS OF RACISM...WHY DO YOU THINK THE BLACK DOT MEANS DEFEAT AND THE WHITE DOT MEANS PEACE...YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT WHO CREATED IT. THAT IS WHY IN INDIA THE LIFGHT SKINNED GREEN AND BLUE EYED PEOPLE HAVE ALL THE WEALTH AND THE VERY DARK INDIANS HAVE NOTHING....WELL UNTIL THEY FOUND THE AFRICAN BLACK MAN
Come on guys, can't we just ask these criminals "pretty please"? That should work shouldn't it? Ok, maybe "pretty please with sugar on top".
Yeah, its easy for you guys sitting in the comfort of your homes or offices to spout off about how "torturing makes us no better than the criminals". Thank God its not up to you to protect our nation.
He's not saying anything except he now disagrees with what was being done. No details as to whether or not he supported these actions initially, no details of what changed that caused him to change his position, no details about what he did to attempt to change the policies where people were being mistreated and being done so illegally, and no details about where those people are now why be so vocal about it now and what kind of compensation is being granted the people that were illegally mistreated.
They say the devil is in the details. Hmph...the truth is in the details too.
Fred and all others who use the comparison of using torture to save your family – This may be useful if you are Liam Neeson and you are starring in a movie called Taken, or if you are Jack Bauer on 24, but this is not the case when we are talking about torturing detainees. 1), we are not even sure that all of the prisoners have been rightfully detained, 2) there have been numerous cases of innocent detainees being murdered by the 'techniques,' 3) intelligence officers have testified that these 'techniques' do not serve to obtain any more information than has been gained, and 4) it is these type of actions that serve to garner support against us, and rightfully so, America is supposed to be better than this.
Waterboarding as compared to what some of extremists do to their own families and people like blowing themselves up, throwing acid in the faces of their women, let alone their enemies, appears to be relatively minor.
The point I was getting across is that if they are that easy to crack, then mere threats should actually do the trick. Average police interrogations do worse then this to many American citizens, yet not one word is spoken for those. Innocent until proven guilty? I think not.
Mr Kilburn,
It appears you haven't been paying attention. In testimony yesterday it was stated quite clearly that traditional methods HAD been producing results. Then the private contractors came in and insisted on using the ENHANCED methods. And in the case of Abu Zubaydah, he immediately clammed up. When they went back to the regular methods, he began to talk again. This is all in the record. So the enhanced methods weren't employed because other tactics didn't work, they were used by sadistic contractors with their own agenda. And clearly they didn't work if they had to keep at it 80 some times. So pay attention bud. These methods do not work. All they do is inflame the people who want to hurt us, and serve as a great recruiting tool.
And why on earth we're having contractors do our dirty work is beyond me
I love how people comment about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of torture as if they knew a damn thing about it. All the people in this thread can do is argue the moral dilemma and the hypothetical: "If torture worked, would I do it?" How about some high profile former intelligence guy coming out and arguing FOR torture? That'll get my attention. I don't need beaurecrats and ideologues singing its praises while getting second-hand info on reliability/results.
If an employee causes harm during the conduct of business, isn't his boss reponsible for his actions? Bush and his cronies are responsible, period. I hope another Scooter Libby, the "scape goat" scenario does not apply here.
The more I'm reading about harsh interrogation/torture being used on the terrorists, the less I'm thinking it might really be necessary. From what I read, some of these people are seriously terrified of catapillers. They are also put in protective head and body gear and thrown up against a padded wall. NO ONE is that easy to crack unless they are truly gutless, cowards who kill innocent women and children. Oh wait?
didnt we complain about the soviet secret prisons, secret police, invasions of privacy, use of torture? and now we do it. i am starting to wonder who REALLY won the cold war.