American Morning
PolitiFact Truth-O-Meter: Health care fact vs. fiction
Editor's Note: PolitiFact.com is a project of the St. Petersburg Times that aims to help you find the truth in politics. Every day, reporters and researchers from the Times examine statements by members of Congress, the president, etc. They research their statements and then rate the accuracy on their Truth-O-Meter.
RNC Chairman Michael Steele says VA has a manual that encourages vets to commit suicide
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/31/steele.michael.gi.art.jpg caption="RNC Chairman Michael Steele addresses a meeting of state party chairmen May 20, 2009 in Baltimore, Maryland."]
The Department of Veterans Affairs has "a manual out there telling our veterans stuff like, 'Are you really of value to your community?' You know, encouraging them to commit suicide."
-Michael Steele on Tuesday, August 25th, 2009 in a Fox News interview
The Truth-O-Meter says: PANTS ON FIRE
Read more: VA does not encourage suicide
Health care bill does not 'force' employers to drop coverage
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/31/brown.ginny.gi.art.jpg caption="Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite (R-FL) on Capitol Hill March 30, 2006 in Washington, DC. "]
"Any government-run 'public' plan ... forces more employers to drop employee coverage due to rising costs and pay an additional 8% payroll tax for each worker."
-Ginny Brown-Waite on Monday, August 24th, 2009 in a mailing
The Truth-O-Meter says: BARELY TRUE
Read more: Creative interpretation of the health bill
Boxer claims that it costs $1,100 per person to cover the uninsured
[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/31/boxer.barbara.gi.art.jpg caption="Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) on Capitol Hill April 2, 2008 in Washington, DC."]
"It's costing every American who is insured $1,100 to pick up the cost of uncompensated care that goes on at the emergency room."
-Barbara Boxer on Monday, August 10th, 2009 in an interview with Rachel Maddow
The Truth-O-Meter says: BARELY TRUE
Read more: There's some dispute over the "hidden health tax"
About this Show
Welcome to the American Morning blog where you can get daily news updates from American Morning's reporters and producers. Join us for "the most news in the morning," weekdays from 6-9 a.m. ET, only on CNN.
On Twitter
I just dont get it. Here is a President that is working and working hard for the American people. For the last 8 years we had a president that did one thing and thats line the pockets of his buddies.
Now we have one that is trying to fix the failing medical industry this is run by insurance companies and beaurocrats. Trying to fix the economy. Trying to fix the war on terror. Trying to inspire young children. Do I agree with bailouts and overspending......no. But that is better than watching us lose everything. Ignoring the problems brought us to this point. Now we are forced to fix it or sink.
And The Republicans want to find fault with everything. We voted for change and he is trying to deliver.
The part that makes me sick is all the scare tactics that is floating around IS WORKING. I get more everyday people that is spewing all the lies that are spread around. I just thought we were smarter of a country than this.
Millions of people are satisfied with their coverage?! Where are these so-called "millions"?
You're satisfied with $3k deductibles?
You're satisfied having to pay upwards of $300/paycheck for insurance?
You're satisfied with sometimes paying $200 for a 30-day perscription??
If that's okay with you, when these other countries don't have to pay ANY of that, I think you need your head checked. Really.
That's like, finding out that you're paying $6 for a cup of coffee, when there's a free cup of coffee up the street. I want the free cup of coffee! I'll wait for it.
NOBODY has to give me any hand outs. What I'm asking is for someone to give me something affordable. What's affordable in MY eyes??
$50/month per HOUSEHOLD.
$5 co pays
$0 deductibles
$4 perscriptions
I can do that!
But this country wants to pay teachers $3k/month and then take $600/pay check for healthcare??
In THIS day in age??
The teacher can't afford it.
I can't afford it.
YOU can't afford it, no matter how much you make the math doesn't make sense.
It's NOT FAIR that pharmeceutical companies can just charge us whatever they want, when it only took them $2 to make the pills!
It's NOT FAIR that when you think you're paying your portion to the insurance, you find out the anesthesiologist comes under the radar and takes *their* money and so now you STILL owe!
It's NOT FAIR that they want to take a ridiculous chunk out of people's paychecks and then not cover certain things that are NECESSARY (boob jobs aren't necessary lol).
I am ASHAMED of America's Healthcare ideas.
I am ASHAMED of Obama for backing down.
If I EVER get cancer (HEAVEN FORBID) I'm moving to Cuba. Forget this; America's trying to kill us so that top 2% can get rich.
Again I say, form a disenterested panel, that has researched and read the proposed plan, then they sit back and when someone makes a statement, they review it and tell US the american people if they are telling the truth or lying! NO more true or false! If it is a lie then call them liars. I would go so far as to investigate everyone to see who is providing the $$$$. My local paper, the other day, had an article that said the "blue dogs", named one GA. senator, had received over 2M from drug companies and others.
you BDZ's (brain-dead-zealots)_ amaze me. every side in this debate has been twisting the truth or outright lying, yet you continue to believe, "your" side. no wonder the powers that be continue to get rich while the people become less educated, less informed and more enslaved to sound bits and empty promises.
Holy cow, remind me not to let my kids read this blog. My wife and I try to teach them to learn the facts, listen respectfully to other people's ideas, avoid personal insults, give and receive constructive criticism, and work together to come up with a workable solution.
So is the private sector or public sector better at healthcare? Over the years, both government and private business have contributed a lot to our economy, but both have also contributed their fair share of greed, incompetence and inefficiency (remember how much wealth was destroyed by private companies in the tech bubble and housing bubble? Remember how government at all levels fell down on the job during Katrina?). If we want to solve the health care problem, we need government and private business to work together effectively, in a coordinated way, to improve fairness, reduce cost, and increase effectiveness.
So, here's my contribution to the health care debate. I think we should create a government reinsurance company modelled on the FDIC (they've done a good job protecting our bank deposits). Under the program, private insurance companies would offer all their customers a base insurance policy, and pass on most of the risk to a single national risk pool run by the government insurance company. That way, the government wouldn't have to control everything, private insurers could provide administrative services without encouraging high costs or dropped coverage, and everyone would have access to a basic, affordable insurance plan.
If we stop yelling at each other, we can come up with constructive, reasonable alternatives that might just work. Yes, the details will be complicated, but we can make our representatives explain what they are proposing, and why. If we take time to listen to their answers - and stop listening to those with a "can't do" attitude - maybe I'll let my kids join the discussion so they can see how adults solve problems.
I do not care which party you voted for but stop this death panel nonsense
VA or otherwise. The final decision will be made by the patient (if competent ) and or his family and loved ones. Doctors by law cannot conduct euthanasia.
Family wise I went against an agreement between my wife and I of no artificial aids if in a death situation ( for both). She was and I and the family allowed artificial respiration, she survived, but now only sees suicide as a solution. I have lost count of the times I have had to physically restrain her from either juming off appartment balconies ( we moved house to prevent that) or stabbing herself, cutting wrists etc., and psychological support is ineffective due to reduced mental capability.
Cost drift is a major issue in health care in US and to say that the wonderful, efficient Grand Old Private GOP (sector) cannot compete with a federal government coop is the louisiest excuse I have ever heard.
The privte sector has had 50 plus years to give coverage to all. Leave as is, it will never happen, and yes the only back track ( flip flopUgh) Obama should make is taxing those who can afford to be taxed = cadillac plans and those earning $ 500k plus p.a and put it up 3% on the excess over $500K. 2% have 80 % of the wealth, nothing to do with socialism that's failed, unrealistic conservatism!!
Regards,
Hodgson.
I have read the posts with some interest, since I am a family physician in are ruarl, economically depressed area of west alabama. Contrary to some, I and my fellow physicans are not "lining our pockets" with the money we are paid.
Healthcare does need reform. Judging from medicare and the VA, a government run program is not the answer. I can tell you that the feds may not be the best option, having grown up in a country with a gov't option.
One of the big problems that I have noticed in the preceeding posts is that universal healthcare is at no cost to the individual. Far from this, most countries with universal healthcare have a tax base in the 40-55% range. This is NOT free. Both the Canadian and the British systems DO have waiting periods (sometimes months, sometimes years) for necessary procedures, despite what proponents of a universal system suggest.
Medicine is one of the few fields (actually, I can't think of any other) where the workers (ie doctors) are prohibited from developing a joint, reasonable fee schedule, but where the few big groups (ie insurances and the gov't) dictate what we can earn. Like it or not, medicine IS a business: I have an office staff to pay, bills to pay, rent to pay, etc. If I and my partner go out of business, about 15 people will loose their job.
This will NOT be easily fixed, an it shouldn't be attempted overnight. There are already to few physicians, and a significant portion of those working are in a position to retire early and further exacerbate the problem.
More will follow......
What is both funny and sad is that 1) CNN is being criticized by those that disagree with FACTS from FACT CHECK.com; (which has no affiliation to CNN what so ever) 2) Those that disagree are suggesting that since their premiss is being proven wrong by factual information, some how, this makes CNN less credible. What is laughable is that people refuse truths they disagree with a demonize anyone who disagrees with them, even and in the case of health care ESPECIALLY when the information is based in reality or those pesky little things some call FACTS.
Do you folks really trust what CNN is feeding you? I don't. Look into the fight for health reform from many sources and make your own decisions. Both parties are full of it. Yes there are some good benefits and yes there are bad ones as well to this health care bill.
Face it, we are not the one's deciding anything. Bicker amongst yourselves to feel better about yourselves. That's all. Change is among us, whether you are for it or against. The ball is rolling, and the only thing you can do is react.
This nation is long over-due for an overhaul. Just like an old engine that uses to much oil, has too many leaks, and is unreliable. Time to strip it down and REBUILD.
honestly if you want health care you should work if your job does not offer it you can buy it privately. just google it I found affordable plans. People need to start doing things for themselves. I find it disappointing that people expect government to do everything for them. if you don't like freedom move elsewhere. I wish more people would take care of themselves instead of expecting others to take care of them. Look if you are disabled your covered under the government parts should be tweeked but we do not need a government option. and instead of paying tax payers dollars on health care no one wants maybe they should focus on fixing social security and VA's health care system. Honestly every time the government steps in to help they make things worse.
We are letting less than 5% of population (10-20 million - I don't include illigal immigrants & folks that could purchase healthcare but choose not to) upset the apple cart. Most Americans are SATISFIED with their plan.
First, what is our objective. Is it to insure the folks that can't afford healthcare, make healthcare affordable, or let our government dictate (and control) our personal healthcare.
The 1st two objectives can and should be done using ideas from both parties.
A Government Option would be a huge mistake ... both short and long-term. It would force-out competition, dramatically increase our national debt, and decrease the quality of healthcare (adding 15 million people to the system without the corresponding servicing MDs). The current bills being shoved down our throats offer little incentives to prospective MD. Why would a person enter the medical field (and endure all of the time, cost, and effort) when their pay is capped, service demands are dramatically increased, and they constantly have to worry about unscrupulous (and unchecked) malpractice attys.
The bills being thrown at us are sadly more about power rather than fixing our healthcare. It's not that hard to connect the dots.
I am a sub-contractor in telecom and make about 70k a year. I have yet to see a plan offered by an insurance company, for me and my family, that I can afford. My wife got laid off from her job right before the recession and lost her employer provided healthcare (which we could not even afford to put my son, daughter and myself on). We could no longer afford her high blood pressure pills. I watched her suffer night after night while her blood pressure elevated to near lethal levels until her body got it under control after 5 weeks. She could have died.
This is the reality of healthcare in America (the greatest country in the world). We need healthcare that the working class can afford; we fuel this country. We need a plan to compete with private insurance companies; we need the public option.
i read these comments and see a whole lot of stupid.people on here would rather a government that they believe that they control run health care other than an insurance company if you dont like what they are doing you take your business else where.if you believe your going to control what government does you need to grow up.ill take those insurance companies any day before ill take the government you will take the insurance rather you like it or not nonsense
I am amazed how many believe what they see anywhere. Open your eyes. The Federal Gov. steals everything they have, spend or promise. But, I guess most believe the Federal Gov't is now the god to some.
I'm a little concerned about Politi-fact checks.
In the public option "forces" employers to drop coverage they say it would be an "unintended consequence" of the legislation and basically leaves it at that.
So you're trying to tell me we shouldn't worry about "unintended consequences"?
Waterboarding terrorists was intended to get information, but we're told we should worry about the consequences that were not the intent, world wide opinion and such.
A ban on abortion from the religious right is intended to save babies lives, but we're told to worry about the unintended consequence of such an act is back alley abortions.
I could go on and on about the unintended consequences of much of our legislation. Seems to me that we're only told by Democrats to worry about it when it's the Republicans passing legislation, otherwise we should just not worry about those consequences.
I guess we must be too stupid to get it?
I think it's more like we're so stupid we'll buy it.
There is a lot of arguments here and they seem to cover the spectrum of political beliefs. Lets start with a few facts. The US spends more for healtcare then anywhere in the world. For this we rank at best 15th in the world in preventing deaths. World Health Organization ranks us 37th in the world as a healthcare system. No one else wants what we have.
Countries that offer universal care do better becasue they have it in their best interest to keep people healthy-our insurance want to cut coverage and lose sick people now.
Lastly, I don't see our system as at all free. Lose your job and you are toast. get sick and pray for the best-maybe get denied coverage.
I have attempted to list problems with our current Healthcare system. This is not complete list only a start at defining the problems with the current healthcare system. Some are easy to fix some are more difficult.
1) Cost, 2) Preexisting Conditions, 3) Portability, 4)Medical Records, 5) Doctor Billing Rates, 6) Hospital Billing Rates, 7) No Dental Coverage, 8) No Eye Coverage, 9) No Hearing Coverage, 10) Artificial Limb Coverage, 11) Catastrophic Healthcare (for long term treatment of long term illnesses), 12) No Patience Control of Charges, 13) No Database of Doctors who are guilty of mal-practice and or loss of medical license.
Until we attempt to solve these issues and others that maybe added we should not rush to create government run/option insurance. STOP THE IRERESPONSIBLE RUSH TO GOVERNMENT RUN INSURANCE. Medicare is a big enough disaster.
What? They're not ALL "Pants on Fire?"
The Health Care system needs much more than just financial considerations and availability.
They need to consider that if we made sure physicians were actually healing patients instead of drugging them all the time to maintain their client base, perhaps we would have a greater number of healthy citizens working reasonable hours, and spending less time at the medical offices draining the medical finances. Would this not help give the economy a chance to begin at least some degree of rebound?
Much more needs to be done to see that the professionals providing the care are actually qualified professionals and they are using their skills to HEAL, not just line their own pockets at the expense of hurting others.
There also is a great need for better availability of the information on HOW to locate the quality care physicians and to know how to tell the difference between a doctor that wants to HEAL and one that is just going through the motions. The need is for everyone that is not “wealthy†to have this necessary information.
In addition to my own bad experiences attempting to gain quality care, as well as others whom I know and thousands of others seen on the internet, I’ve recently been emailed a link to a new blog with a story far worse than my own, and he/she has apparently only begun to tell their tale. There was a bit in his/her tale that reminded me of several known situations, so perhaps it might spark some recognition and contribute to any venue of improvement:
http://enoughdangit.blogspot.com/ .
Something MUST be done.
What makes ME laugh is how everything everybody is complaining about regarding the health care bill is what is in place– NOW! Bureaucrats deciding who gets insurance and who does not? HMOs already do that. Too many elderly people falling through the cracks? Current medicaid and HMO system already does that. "Death panels?" Insurance companies already cut people and let people die if they don't stand to profit from it. People are afraid of totalitarianism and socialism? They'd actually rather have a profiting company decide their fate, rather than a government that WE CONTROL through democracy in action? Unbelievable. And one person above says that the mass majority of people like their current health insurance!? I don't think I know a single person who likes their insurance! I do, however, know dozens of people who cannot even get it, and they are NOT lazy, unemployed folks on welfare. So you really think we don't need health care reform? If so, I think you're delusional.
Yea Don, all that "Give me your tired, your poor..." nonsense is old hat. Screw everyone that's "not me". Having to pay for things I don't want like police, firefighters, and road workers is socialism! Private companies control their costs way better than any government run program. Look at the cell phone companies, the cable companies, and the private banks. No problems there!
To the idiots: that was sarcasm.
1 -‘Are you really of value to your community?
The manual basically says this. He infers that this leads Vets to question themselves leading to suicide. He doesnt say the manual says to comit suicide. Nice try CNN but people dont like strawman arguments.
2- It leads companies to opt for the tax rather than provide their own healthcare. Why pay for decent healthcare when the business are given a cheap alternative. This should be rated MOSTLY true.
3- Nice and factual.
I guess CNN had to present #3 that based on facts and numbers to make itself look legit when #1 and #2 were setup by themselves to shoot down. Too bad both #1 and #2 are barely based on facts.
I just find it sad that large segments of this country are gullible enough to believe that the Dems are working THIS hard to turn America into a totalitarian environment. C'mon, be serious. Death panels? Socialist Healthcare? Suicide manuals? People please!
This is why we need to support education reform as well, so that more people get themselves some higher education so they can tell the difference between GOP bull**** and Democratic reform.
Dang you rednecks! You guys have big mouths and small brains. Unfortunately, you found it easier to find a mike than it was to find a book!
If this Health Care Bill is so great for the American people, where is the voices of Bill and Hillary? I have not heard them voice their opinion on this yet. After all, they tried and failed when Bill was president, so again, if is so great, how come those two are not backing it?
richdmartin August 31st, 2009 11:04 am ET
are the these people so stupid beleive all the stupid rumors when all they have to do is get online and read the bill….come pull youre head out of your ??????
_____________________________
I'll bet dollars to donuts you haven't read the bill. You can't even form a proper sentence. So, go ahead with your insults, but look in the mirror next time you call someone stupid.
The GOP has been exploiting ignorant people for years,weak minded people can be fooled into thinking everything that is said to them is true. The GOP knows this.
@ razamataz
"And FYI, Using the passing of Sen. Kennedy as a reason or a method of passing this bill is slimy, shameles.s and totally dishonors the man. But I would expect little else from Democrats, they haven’t a moral fiber amongst the lot of them."
-------
You dont like the idea because it will unite Democrats to create a compromise and be united. They dont need the GOP after numereous attempts to get them on board, so we will unite in Ted's memory and cause and pass a bill without you.
And it scares you becuse it will likely kill off your town-hall spread-the-lies tactic.
And dont even try that disingenuous, its 'not the way to honor him' garbage. That suggests you admired him or belive in universal healthcare. Which you obviously dont.
The dems will unite., and the GOP will be left to throw tantrums and rocks.
Lol...at least when Ted died, we want to unite around healthcare policy for the good of all of America. When Reagan died, all you rallied for him to have an Aircraft Carrier named for him and to put his face on Mt Rushmore.
You could have united in his death somehow for a greater thing than boats and statues.
Don,
The govnm't purpose is the preservatation of the union (protection)and maintining a society for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Dems in general trying to create an equal playing field so that everyone gets equal rights and discrimination is limited. Todays Healthcare costs for working class people have doubled in 10 yrs. Plus most of us don't realize, that the total amount of coverage is capped and we are all one major illness away from being dropped by the insurance company. Healthcare reform is all about ending insurance companies capping coverage, as well as ending preexisting conditions denial.
Don Crauswell writes:
> Why should people who won’t work or even try get anything? Why?
Sounds like a case of "Lucky Ducky" to me. See
http://dir.salon.com/story/comics/boll/2002/12/19/boll/index.html
for an example, or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_duckies
for a definition.
Universal health care coverage does not equal universal health care!
Health care reform has turned into simply health insurance reform. All that does is shift the cost of health care from one entitiy to another. Both of which are ultimately paid for by all of us, everyone of us, not just the wealthy. It does nothing to reduce the actual costs of health care. Any talk of health care reform must be comprehensive, across the board reform that reduces the actual costs of health care, not just shifts the same high costs to another entity.
Everyone is talking about the public option, but we have yet to hear what kind of insurance people will get with the public option. Will it be the "cadillac" kind of insurance-no co-pays, no co-insurance, no maximum lifetime benefit? Or will it be major medical-where the gov't helps you pay for a plan where all expenses are out of pocket until you reach a 5k deductible, then pay 20 percent co-insurance up to 15K out of pocket, with a lifetime maximum benefit?
What if my employer does drop my current coverage? Am I even eligible for the public option? If I am, can I get the same level of benefit I have now and still only pay the amount I pay now each month, which is only 25% of the premium cost? Could I possibly end up with less coverage than I currently have in order to only pay the same amount I do now, or would I have to actually pay more than I do now to get the same level of coverage I currently have?
There are very valid concerns about what the public option is, but there is very little in the way of concrete answers. How can anyone know what this really means until we get some answers?
First, I am appalled at Steele's claim which is inflammatory to say the least and downright dishonest. Seems like he should have read the pamphlet before making such outrageous claims. I am sick of these screeching "socialism" – do you send your children to public school? and they get to go even if you don't pay property taxes?! do you collect or intend to collect social security? are you on medicare? police? firefighters? If you really are opposed to "socialism" then never call the police, regardless of your need, don't call the firehouse if your house is on fire, don't send your children to school and for heaven's sake – send back your social security check.
I'm so over the GOP and Big Insurance scare tactics... I'm simply over it.
I know, that GOP is just AWFUL. Especially considering that the Democrats could pass this in a heartbeat through both houses of congress, if they wanted to – THEY CONTROL BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS. The GOP could take a nap and continue 'doing nothing,' as they've been accused of time and time again, and the Democrats could pass this instantly, if they could just band together.
...but they can't, and they won't, because *drumroll* A PLURALITY OF THOSE POLLED DO NOT WANT THIS BILL IN ANY FORM.
Not to mention that Rasmussen has Obama at a 47% approval rating, with 53% of those surveyed disapproving his performance.
So, go on – keep blaming the GOP. See how much good it does you.
Why anyone is surprised at anything that's happening is beyond me. We all knew the Republicans, backed up by big money from big pharma and big insurance, would try to derail this already derailed train (our health care system). And we knew that most Americans would believe anything they heard on Fox, regardless of whether it has any relation to anything actually in any bill or proposal that might be made.
And for all of you who are afraid of socialism, I'd point out that in the United States our systems of public education, fire and police protection, and even trash collection are prime examples of socialism in your service. I don't have kids, and never will, yet I pay just as much toward educating our kids as anyone else does. Look up "socialism" and see what it says.
I suppose you folks couldn't IMAGINE for just a moment that Obama's ratings have dropped like a stone because the VAST majority of us know the TRUTH and it's CNN and you brainwashed liberals spreading the blatant lies? Oh gosh no... that couldn't be... you are so convinced of your own righteousness that you can't see the reality of what this Obamacare fiasco will create. It will be to the detriment of us ALL if this passes and you're so self absorbed that you have become wilfully ignorant of the horrible consequences of this foolish legislation.
Obama, CNN, MSNBC, (et. al) are the LIARS!
Obama needs to point out that reform is "conservative" because the current system wastes so much money, and that the current system is the real "killer" with "death panels" – the insurance companies whose motive is to deny care to make a profit.
1) The reason I get concerned about emulating the Japanese or European health care systems is not because current coverage is poor, but because it's unsustainable. They're facing the same population-aging scenario (only worse) that we are, which is going to force a rearrangement of their system. Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't heard anything on the news about this.
2) CBO report says this is going to increase the deficit and debt over the next two decades. We are already in massive debt. There are a lot of moral causes I would like the government to fix, but if it's going to bankrupt us and lead to much greater deprivation, then is universal coverage moral in the end? I'll believe a public option will cut costs when someone other than a politician or pundit gives an indication that it will.
3) I can't believe there is so little talk about TORT reform. This could be an issue to form a center majority, but it's getting BURIED.
4) There are clearly lies and distortions on both sides, but the Administration has bungled this big time. They have utterly failed to offer a coherent reason for reform and a plan for achieving it. They have to educate the American public, which doesn't have the time (or is too apathetic) to study too far into these issues. Obviously the media can't be relied on to offer balanced and penetrating reporting, only to rehash politicized talking points. Failure for a consensus here lies with the Administration and media, which have failed to put forward a centrist and common sense plan for reform.
Wow, you guys take the cake...why not just link back to yourselves?
Well said, southwestgreensofohio. Unfortunately this nation has become extremely me vs. you where one side will disagree with the other side regardless of the issue or facts. Neither party is 100% correct and the only way to succeed right now is bipartisanship.
Michaeal Steele is a despicable idiot and for the likes of him, I am no longer a Republican. How can you support people such as this?
Let me review...The Republicans said Medicare was Socialism. Ronald Reagan recorded that album proclaiming the evils of it. Now, Seniors are worried about health care reform might lead to Medicare being dismantled. It's been proven that the people leading the fight against health care reform have been fined by the government for defrauding not just Medicare, but also Veterans. The problem with not having a public option is trusting corporations to do the right thing even when knowone is looking. History has proven that greed will win out, so all of you that think you are fine now are just one major surgery away from finding out that you're not covered like you thought. You fail to realize why America can't compete in a global economy. Our companies are moving jobs overseas because they don't have to pay for their employees health care. People complain how they can't get a raise, they complain about their premiums increasing, your employer is taking the money for your raise paying the insurance companies. How else do you explain the CEO of one of the major insurance companies pulling down 3/4 of a billion dollars in three years. I don't see how or why this is acceptable to anyone. He got a raise and you didn't!
As a registered republican and one who has experienced a government option, I am disgusted with the GOP's outright LIES. I paid $60/month for coverage in Japan for my family (1998). While it was not a Cadillac plan, it served it's purpose compared to $280/month I was paying here in the States (1998). While I do not know today's rates in Japan, I do know I pay $990/month today for just the medical coverage.
We can have a government option which covers the basic and catastrophic needs and still have private plans compete on quality. Death squads and scare tactics are disgusting. Preying on fear and stall tactics do derail a critical issue hurts the American people for the benefit of the party. We need a solid medical reform that is balanced.
Tort Reform is a laughing stock when 40 States already have some type of restriction for malpractice cases already. California set limits of $250K in 1972 for pain and suffering. Tort Reform for product liability or professional liability would never see these types of limits. A person is better of in a vehicle rollover than a doctor who cuts off the wrong leg.
A public option is critical and tort reform is a derailing tactic. I have Canadian friends who swear by their healthcare plan. The past President of Canadian Medical Association was on CSPAN and acknowledged there are areas for improvement, they are working on it and in the end a public approach goes to a cultural belief system. Do all citizens deserve reasonable access to healthcare? In Canada, one thing has become clear, rich or poor they all get the same coverage. Is our health care perfect.....No. Are we working on it...Yes. So use Canada as the litmus test as the analysis for a public system is unfair and to restrictive. Belgium, Germany and Japan have public systems which are high in quality and cover all.
Don't wait for the media, the politicians or special interest to provide their analysis. We need to do our balanced research and spread the word on what we as citizens find out. One vote...One Voice is how this issue can be resolved.
Dem or Rep. Open your eyes! You people that are so against government control, what he heck are you talking about! What happend to if its broke..FIX IT! What we have is awful. I work full time and am a a college grad. I JUST get by! Im not a spendthrift, but even the necessaties are becoming so much more difficult to get. Wake up, stop being stuck in the past, this country is a freaking mess, and all we do is squabble and bicker! I work in a community program and am a CTRS. Preventitive care in this country is non existant! Insurance will pay for you cancer treatment, but wont bother and try to prevent it by using any preventative means! Unfortunatly, at this rate, non of us should expect anything, just a slow and painfull fall to the bottom.
Don Crauswell August 31st, 2009 12:45 pm ET
The Dems seem to favor everything for everyone, isn’t that socialism? What makes anyone belive they are entitled to anything, what about working and paying for what you want. Thats what built this country and this “give to everyone†is whats destroying it. Why should people who won’t work or even try get anything? Why?
-------------------------------–
You're assumimg...... Here are the facts; So many people work and are not insured. Or they are insured but their premiums are eating up their hard earned paychecks.....When liberals talk about the least of these, they are mostly talking about the hard working people, who get the short end of the stick........This isn't the 50's, 60's, 70's, or 80's anymore. Even welfare has been reformed, you in NYC you must work (more like community service) a minimum of 20 hrs. to recieve welfare now. I'm thirty years old, and everyone knows not working is not cool and is for losers, most liberals are past that discussion. We're talking about what is good, and what is just for all.
How can we ever believe the GOP opinions and comments regarding healthcare after their WMD presentations to get us into a war with Iraq? Wouldn't we be approaching an extreme level of stupidity?
Doesn't look like it is all just Republicans spreading myths. The Democrats seem to be telling "Half Truths" and "Lies" and the Republicans are either preaching scare tactics or out right "Lies". Can't believe anything coming out the mouths of any of them. Glad I'm an independent and don't belong to either of these parties. They are both a disgrace and an insult to the american people's intelligence. I just hope everyone remembers the names of all the deceptional liars when elections role around, Republicans and Democrats alike. Show all of them you are tired of their lies and deception!
What I don't understand is why anybody believes ANYTHING a politician says. They are all full of it and only worried about themselves. Republicans and Democrats both have their own agendas here. We will never know the truth until it is too late to do anything about it. If politicians want something you can gaurantee we will probably be better off without it. I would just be happy if we got some tort reform so these ridiculous attorneys and crack pots would stop bringing stupid lawsuits into the court room and tying up the legal system; however, you can bet the politicians don't want to loose their payoffs from those groups.
Wow... Republicans lying? I'm totally blown away!
Where is the Common Sense? do the math ,47 million more on the health care system and no more doctors? Equals Rationing,Period...Rationing,Rationing........
Pat, Ca...The truth is Obama won the election, both popular and electoral votes by overwhelming majority...McCain lost big time. So get over it. I think the country has spoken...and not a bunch of whiney uneducated, selfish freaks who would rather believe a fat man and beauty queen than research the information for themselves.
I am a little selfish, I have worked for 56 years, paid into SS the amount the U S government stated I must pay. I also paid into Medicare the amount the U S government stated. I decided this would N O T sustain my wife and I so I also contributed to a 401K. I am retired, on Medicare, I have an advantage plan that pays the gaps in GOVERNMENT Medicare and also a prescription plan. My wife and I MUST pay the USG $96.00 each, every mouth we get a SS check plus $71.00 each for our prescription plan, $167.00 each per month. Plus if we get a job, part time we pay taxes again. If government run health care is so good WHY is Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security BROKE. WHY do government run projects/agencies cost so much money to run???? Public run health care, single payer, MIGHT be O K if it covered EVERY U S citizen. Starting with the U S President, Congress and U S government workers. Dems. will not allow this.
Humanity needs food, water, and shelter.....do you expect the government to provide you with that also. If we expect the government to provide us with all our necessities there is no longer an American Dream. Health Reform YES, Single Payer Government System....NO
Having read the entire House of Representative version I can tell you that only a lawyer could understand what they think the bill says. I have even heard different lawyers from both parties "interpert" the bill. This is one of the problems with it, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT REALLY SAYS. If passed I predict that it will end up in court and even the judges will have different interpertations of its meaning. It is crap and they are trying to pass something way too fast. Slow down and attack the real problems and don't just try to appease a small, annoying loud group of unhappy people.
The Dems seem to favor everything for everyone, isn't that socialism? What makes anyone belive they are entitled to anything, what about working and paying for what you want. Thats what built this country and this "give to everyone" is whats destroying it. Why should people who won't work or even try get anything? Why?
Enough of the nonsense....
To the rednecks opposed to health care reform: Stop the B.S. and ....
"Just git er done"!!!!!
Rick McDaniel August 31st, 2009 9:51 am ET
The facts are, the citizens reject the proposed plan, and that means that Obama and the congress must develop a new and different plan, that addresses the concerns of citizens.
To do less, is un-American.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Rick McDaniel, to say all citizens reject the current bill is a lie, or just naive. At least I know that the 46 million that didn't vote for Obama object it.......I'll give you about 1 million out of those who voted for Obama as well. However, that still leaves 55 million who did vote for Obama, who do support the current effort. We just aren't yelling and fuming all over the place. Bottom line, this President deserves some respect and time to get things right.
The left gave Bush a rough time initially due to the way he won the Presidency. However after 9/11, we all banded behind him. It wasn't until 2003, that we began to loudly object his agenda. Yet I still have family who supported him in 2004, b/c they believed he should finish the war he started, and others b/c like them, he was a christian.
Boy did they regret that. In conclusion I must say that this President is working triple time to fix what happened in the last eight years.
People can blame the GOP all they want, but the Dems control the house and the senate
Lies will never get one far. Though the Presidents' approval rating is dropping due to lies, the GOP still has an extremely low approval rating.
Health care reform is important to our nation. The lies must be dispelled by congress, and our President.
Why should someone buy health insurance in the first place? All I hear about is health care companies dropping you if you get sick. It seems like it is better to focus on keeping your own bills paid, saving some money and forgetting about buying insurance.
The Democrats will come out with some politicked up numbers that rate a "low truthiness" on the meter, but the bald-faced slanderous lies are only coming from one side. I applaud all of those people who can say "I am not in support of government increasing it's role in health care" without resorting to shouting, lies or slander, but there is a large portion of that side of the "debate" who will say or do anything to bring their "opponents" case down. That is not debate, and it is not constructive. Shame on you.
The media has everyone so worried about who is lying and getting Dem and Rep fighting each other. In the mean time no one has question our government as to why or government (not privet insurance plans) pays more for healthcare than countries that provide their entire population with basic insurance. Now our government wants us to pay another $500.00 per year per person to fix it. Don’t worry about that though.
Here is a news flash people, politicians lye, no matter party they represent.
We dont need healthcare reform, we need government reform, the rest will fall into place.
Will it add to the deficit? Probably - the most morally correct things we do in life are often the most difficult.
Yes I will help pay for those who cannot. Yes I think those 5% of the population who make 50% of all earnings in the US should at the very least pay their share.
No one wants this country to be like the USSR or Cuba - not even President Obama.
Yes you should be angry, but you should be angry at the people who are telling you lies to get you fired up to save the poor insurance companies and keep the status quo. They know they are not telling the truth.
Government option must be there. If there is profit made on every health care decision (today's status quo) no health care decision is made on the proper merits. The profit criterea will ALWAYS CONTROL each decision, whether or not to withold required care or to perform procedures NOT required.
Are there really that many of us stupid enough to swallow these enormous GOP lies?
As a moderate-conservative who SUPPORTS health care reform, the problem here is that the administration did not sell this to the American people. When there are 270+ million people with coverage, and the vast majority of whom like their coverage, are confronted with a plan than COULD derail their own health care options (not necessarily will, but could) you are going to have a problem.
Here is an idea, why don't we actually talk about this issue instead of having a democratically doinated house and senate ram a bill down the throats of people who don't want it. No doubt the GOP is playing on people's fears, but it's the democratic party that allowed this by not being open on the issue in the first place and just assuming the public would go along with them after their election results.
Howard – Yes a public option will be cheaper, It won't have to pay millions of dollars a year in pay to over paid CEO's , bonuses, etc.
Take the 30 minutes to watch the Wendell Potter interview with Bill Moyers on utube. He was a VP at Cigna who after seeing people in his home state who don't have coverage lined up at fairgrounds waiting in the rain to be treated in a horse stall, had the guts to challenge his employer and finally quit and tell congress what goes on at insurance companies. And how they demonize the canadian and european systems.
Travel to Canada, or talk with Canadians. One I talked with made this comparison. Yes people do win lotteries, but he doesn't know anyone who has. And the same with horror stories the GOP puts out about Canadian system. Yes he admits maybe one ( or a few) Canadians have come to US for some procedure but he has never met one. Same goes in talking to Europeans especially British. I know a American who travel to London, his family got sick and a few had to be admitted to hospital, only bill was a under 15.00 charge for medicine and or a small fee, but total was 15.00 each. Tell me where in USA you can visist a hospital and be treated for 15.00
In the past I have voted for the GOP, but that was before the Bush/Cheney/Rove/Abrahoff/Rumsfeld/etc. ends justifies the means and transfer of power and wealth to corperate interests.
This is not the GOP of Eisenhower/Goldwater/Nixon/Ford or even parts of Reagan GOP. At least Nixon looks like a honest crook ( And did some good things in his presidency) compared to recent leaders of GOP.
I am tired of my insurance being used to pay for uninsured to have to wait and use emergency room for care. OFFER A PUBLIC OPTION NOW!!!!!!!
msgijoe ... where would you suggest we find the "efficient government" you say is needed 🙂
State government is generally more efficient than Federal, and local government if generally more efficient than State. AND private enterprise is generally more efficient than any form of government. Common sense would dictate that government, especially Federal government, should be the last resort when addressing issues of efficiency.
The most efficient and economical systems, medical or otherwise, are those which put the consumer in direct control of their own spending and provide that consumer with multiple independent sources for the goods or services.
ObamaCare is the antithesis of this model. It gives the consumer zero control (or even knowledge) of their spending and will likely result in a single (or fewer) source(s) for the goods and services. A BAD PLAN.
Where is the other side shown? The Dem party? What I would like to know is if it is true or false about what Dem are saying about Obama's plan. I would like to know if the president is telling us the true about his not well defined plan cause many Americans have the impression that even the president change his views about his own health care plan depending on who he is talking to.
Michael Steele says VA has a manual that encourages vets to commit suicide and CNN has determined it false! You are not right CNN because this is exactly what they are doing!
The reason I know; in 1997, my father was in a vet hospital and the doctor said to my father, " if you have this procedure, it might not be successful and you would be in a worse condition at Christmas than you are now. Do you want to put your family through that at Christmas time?" My father decided not to pursue any further medical procedures and we, his family, buried him on the 14th of Dec, 1997! The doctor knew my father was ill and did not want the family to have any undue stress over his medical condition so he allowed them to stop treatement and died. Christmas was very sad without him.
So maybe CNN needs to take a look into that handbook, manual, and see the tactics they use to get the vets to stop medical care, which is what the government wants!
The media needs to start doing their job and reporting the truth. When a politician starts ranting about so-called "death panels", reporters/journalists need to call them on it. It is absurd. Reporters in the American media really just gossip.
Does anyone find it at all odd that all our elected Gov't officials keep bad mouthing the way Gov't elected officials run things? They basically are telling us that we should in fact have no faith in them, because when Gov't gets involved, things get messed up. And we're supposed to feel better about this because?
I work for one of these giant health insurance companies. I know firsthand the underhanded, dirty tactics they are taking to quash healthcare reform. It's only so the pocketbooks of stockholders and CEOs continue to increase. We employees are bombarded weekly by E-mails encouraging us to contact our Senators and Congressional reps to speak out against healthcare reform. They've gone so far as to mail postcards to our homes to sign that have pre-written statements against reform. The 4th postcard was a copy to mail back for their records. For their records! What I say to my Senators and Congressional rep is my own business. I have health insurance from my employer but I can't afford to go to my provider because I have a $3k deductible. If the employees can't afford the product, then how can we offer it as a plan for our customers? Not only do we offer the same plan, we heavily push it. It's called a consumer driven healthplan but it's really for the stockholders profits.
Passage of a healthcare bill will force insurance companies to offer competive rates. A public option will be just that–an option for you. You aren't obligated to take it.
There is thing thing that most people seem to be forgetting or just not paying attention too. It is not the Democrats or the Republicans. It is us! We all know that the cost to an average family for health care is obscene to put it mildly. Right now, I am living in Japan and for the few times that I have been to the doctor, it cost me (out-of-pocket) $200 total! It is a universal system. Yes there are some things that you might need done that cost more per visit, but paying good money for what you may or may not use is sick. Preventative Health Care, Private Insurance, and Government Health Care combined in an effective way will eventually bring down cost. But the most important thing is this.... IT STARTS WITH YOU! Take better care of yourself first.
I thought Republicans consist of mainly christains, why are they finding it difficult to be their brothers keeper, does it mean that they dont sturdy their bible or what. I am sick and tired of seeing republican going against basic need for man kind. What is wrong giving coverage to all Americans, from which place come these Republican that call them selves americans, people of God yet, they want others to die. Please Republican stop decieving your selves and do the right thing. Do good because doing good is good.Remember, what you compare to others, will be compare to you.
Any "truth meter" conducted by CNN is totally laughable!
It's sort of like reporting the "truth" about Obama during the primaries and election - it just doesn't exist!
I think the plan should include an option for GOPs to commit suicide when tested and found that they are morons – let's use it to improve the gene pool.
Come on, people... are you REALLY that stupid? I'm worried for this country, not because of "socialism" but because of rampant idiocy in America - led by tea baggers who cannot even figure out how DEGRADING the term IS (google it), however applicable.
The health care push is about INSURANCE, people. You know? Those companies like AIG that want a bailout because they got greedy and failed? Insurance is the biggest ponzi scheme of them all, frankly. They are the ultimate middleman – providing NOTHING but taking it all.
They ARE the problem.
So let's have ONE insurer we can control with our VOTES. As it is, we have NO control over insurance companies at all - except for that mythical "free market/choice" thing that doesn't actuall apply as more and more of these insurers become all the same company.
Bottom line the government has zero business being a dictator. If you want someone making up your confused mind there are plenty of countries you can move to. Perhaps if the government would stop reaching in to our pockets to pay for petty social programs we all could afford our own health care. Think people, think!!!
So one 'lie' from the RNC chair and two 'barely true' from a SENATOR and REPRESENTATIVE and the GOP is being deceitful? The Dems that control the government are bald faced liars. Not to mention Obama's own words.
are the these people so stupid beleive all the stupid rumors when all they have to do is get online and read the bill....come pull youre head out of your ??????
Razmataz, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona has put forth a short (not 1000 pages) series of questions and answers that cuts through much of the confusion of HR3200. I do not think it will convince you to support the bill but it will help you to understand the process and the conditions which we are facing with or without HR3200. I, personally, believe we are in need of medical reform. I understand the fog of political misinformation is a result of overzealous lobbying of special interests (on both sides). Hopefully, the final form of the medical reform bill will represent the collective wisdom of our legislature and will solve many of our problems. I do believe an efficient government is necessary to restrain the exuberance of an unrestrained capitalist system. And I do believe our insurance industry needs restraining. However, there is also a need to restrain the appetite for more freebies in that portion of the population that currently qualifies for medicaid. I hope the final bill does both.
I'm starting to wonder if all the GOP are just completely insane. The sheer number of lies they come out with is just frightening, and the number of idiots that actually believe them is terrifying.
I'd like to know why CNN and it's affiliates only look at what the GOP people are saying. How about the, now DEBUNKED, claims that it will only cost a few billion? What about the claims that this will increase coverage? Where are their reporters on that? Or do they even bother looking into what the great Obama's people say anymore and just take it at face value?
Randy ...
In my opinion, your comments point to the truth about the health care "push."
It's not about providing more health care, that would require more doctors ... nothing in the bill about more doctors.
It's not about saving money ... no one really believes it will save money overall. When did a government program ever "save" money.
It's not about some "moral imperative." Dems contribute way less to charitable causes than Reps.
It's not about caring about the poor. The poor are far worse off in liberal/progressive-run cities and states than they are elsewhere.
IT IS ABOUT more control ... control of more of the economy and more of our lives ... pure and simple.
I am not convinced that we need a goverment run option. I have experienced the good and bad part of the current healthcare system and agree that it needs to be improved. I see the news stories and political statments about what is wrong with the current healthcare system but I don't see anyone looking at the root causes of the problems. I also don,t see anyone finding ways to fix the root causes of the problems. What I see id a head long rush to get the goverment in the isurance business. I wrote to CNN susgesting a way that they could help define what is wrong with the current healthcare system, find solutions, and help inform the American public. No response to date must not see it as something that would improve ratings..
As an employer who pays the entire amount of healthcare for his 11 employees, if there is a Public option that cost much less than my current insurance, of course I will switch. That is why a Public Option is so dangerous. The Public Option, aka Government Option, has no problem losing OUR money so they can charge less. Eventually everyone is going to have to be on this plan because the big insurance companies will lose so many customers like me they will be forced to go out of business. All we will have left is a Public Option which then becomes no option at all. Except for the politicians who, of course, will have their own version of health insurance.
The facts are, the citizens reject the proposed plan, and that means that Obama and the congress must develop a new and different plan, that addresses the concerns of citizens.
To do less, is un-American.
Aaron, perhaps you could enlighten all of us as to the merits of HR 3200. The reason I ask is that there doesn't seem to be any politicians who are capable of doing that.
Largely because none of them have read the silly thing.
And FYI, Using the passing of Sen. Kennedy as a reason or a method of passing this bill is slimy, shameles.s and totally dishonors the man. But I would expect little else from Democrats, they haven't a moral fiber amongst the lot of them.
Perhaps if the bills were written in plain English and not so lengthy and hard to read there would not be so much confusion. If the bills were easier to understand the misinformation and misinterpretations would not hold water. And why do they want to totally revamp medical coverage at a time when the economy is so bad. They should be looking at other means of covering the few million who want coverage but cannot afford it and look at regulating the insurance industry to cover existing conditions and not drop those who develop costly conditions.
President Obama needs to be responsible for his own agenda. I have heard enough nonsense from both sides, but ultimately, it is up to the party of change to make its case, not the party of status quo. The biggest nonsense, I heard, is that we can provide universial healthcare with cost neutral and without raising tax. What kind of BS is that? Healthcare is one-sixth of our total economy. It is twice as large as social security. How is it possible that we, as a nation, provide universial healthcare with no cost, whereas we don't have enough money for social security and it is going to bankrupt. Seriously.
Are Republicans trying to defend a system that denies people medical care? Should the insurance companies insure me in the same way they insure my car? Where is the humanity?
Without consulting a psychologist on the effects of the pamphlet Politifact has determined it is false...I only have a bachelors degree in psychology and know when you start suggesting such things as "my life isn't worth living" to people who are suffering and emotionally on the edge, that does nothing but send them towards such ideas as ending their lives. I find it disingenuine to say that such a document would not have an impact on people as a whole, people in difficult situations are not going to read it and say on balance it was neutral, they are going to read the parts that pertain to them on the questionare and will be influenced by that and the less suggestive portions will have little to no effect. I think Politifact needs to actually consult people who know what effect this would have rather than just make their own unqualified opinion when it comes to psychological questions. I have read it and when you put yourself in the position of someone who is struggling the document does not focus on all the reasons they have to live, but rather on how much their life sucks and isn't worth living...not the message we should be sending or have our veterans focus on.
What I am most afraid of, having come form a totalitarian country, is the tendency this administration has to want to control EVERYTHING! and it's not just healthcare, it's everything. I just heard a soundbite from a town meeting in California, where congresswoman Diane Watson was praising Castro and the healtcare system in Cuba, are you kidding me? Obama is moving very fast in his journey to take away individual freedoms, I just want you all to open your eyes and question everything, lest we end up like Cuba
It's not nonsense to say that the House bill will ultimately lead to more government control of what health care anyone get.
It's not nonsense to say that it will increase our deficit and debt.
It's not nonsense to say that if you cut $500BIL or more from Medicare funding that there won't be as much money for elder care as there is now. If there is that much waste in Medicare, all the more reason not to give more control to government.
What is nonsense is for Obama to say on one hand Medicare is unsustainable and on the other hand to say it is a model for a government success. Of course people like Medicare. People like stuff that "seems" to be free. But we cannot afford it, and we certainly cannot afford to extend it to the entire population.
Besides ... it's not the GOP that preventing the bill from being passed. It's Dems who know they might have to get a real job if they vote for it.
The GOP's nonsense and outright lies about President Obama's healthcare proposal must stop!! It is imperative that President Obama continue to vigorously make the case on the merits of H.R. 3200 with the public option to the nation. Senator Kennedy's passing provides one more reason for the neccessity of getting this important piece of legislation passed. If the President and the Democrats fail to do this, they will have let down the American people and Senator Kennedy and will have dishonor his memory and life-time legislative accomplishments.
President Obama needs to step up his campaign to dispel half-truths and outright lies about healthcare reform and promote H.R. 3200 with a robust public option. It is imperative that healthcare reform gets done this year. There is alot at stake for everyone and for the country. I think that the bill should be renamed the Edward M. Kennedy Healthcare Reform Act of 2009 in honor of Senator Edward M. Kennedy who was a stalwart healthcare reform advocate and the nation's greatest and longest serving U.S. Senator.
I'm wondering when people will stop demonizing one group or another and just start getting to the work at hand of rebuilding our great nation. The blocks are in place, but we seem to be stuck in neutral...
As for the commenter who thinks the GOP is responsible for President Obama's falling approval ratings, maybe, just maybe, he is responsible for his own actions and deeds. It started with the "Not Me 90's" and has continued to this day. When we can all stand up and take responsiblity for our own actions, instead of pointing the finger, we will all be better off...
President Kennedy had it right: "Ask not..." When will we remember and embrace the positive attitudes that made us great again? I hope very soon... Good luck my fellow Americans...
What's really frightening is how many people are actually fooled into believing the GOP's nonsense. Just look at Obama's recent crash in the polls. I think the media is not doing nearly enough to expose these frauds.
I'm starting to wonder how far will the GOP go to continue to scare american citizens regarding this healthcare plan. It's good to know tha CNN has the truth-o-meter. If not, many of us would be fooled.