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November 17th, 2009
06:00 AM ET

Patriots or Extremists? Growing up in a militia

By Jim Acosta

If there's one thing militias and their critics can agree on, it's the fact that this pro-gun and anti-Obama movement is growing in the United States. That begs the question, "who are these guys?"

We try to answer that in part two of our series, "Patriots or Extremists," by going home with the leader of a militia in Michigan.

Lee Miracle may run training exercises for the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia once a month in a rural area outside of Flint, but he's just as busy at home. He and his wife Katrina have eight kids, and there are more than 20 guns in the house. This explains why Lee refers to the family as "Lee and Kate plus eight plus a gun rack."

Make that several gun racks. The Miracle children are very much growing up in the militia. They take part in militia training exercises, including the weapons training.

We were there when 13-year-old Megan fired off her shotgun, but even the couple's six-year-old has had her share of target practice.

Share your thoughts right here on our blog

Filed under: Patriots or Extremists
soundoff (560 Responses)
  1. john ceresini

    I believe every American has the right to speak ot when his or her goverment is wrong, or even percieved as doing wrong, do we have a right to bare arms, yes we do, in the light of 9/11 our so called strong position on the world events has somewhat gone south if you will. We as Americans have a right to protect ourselves when someone within our goverment sends the Flag of our country up the flagpole up side down,who do we turn to when we need help. We as a people who have always thought of ourselves as a self reliant people. We fought on two fronts during world war 2 and we were victorious, only because of the Brave men and women of this country standing up for our right to do so. Now we find ourselves in another war in the middle eastern countries, a place where once again we as soldiers do not know who the enemy truly is, our men and women are coming missing legs and arms, who defends them in harms way. The goverment of this fine nation of ours "The PEOPLE" who the goverment needs to start working for and not againist. mister obama step down!!!!!!!!

    February 3, 2010 at 9:37 am |
  2. Sean

    @ Jack,

    Sorry if your feelings got hurt. The reality is, you may want to come across as voicing your opinion. Your opinion sends a message of hate and discrimination toward those who are different from you. Because a small group of people want to be in a militia, where they have done no harm to any other person, you come part them to gangs and extremist groups such as the KKK. Where someone wants to exercise their rights and own as many firearms and ammo as they want, you try to make them look rediculous and someone to be afraid of and even label them as racist and violent.

    Jack, this is a free country. In a free country you can own 100 guns if that is what makes you happy, so long as you don't use them to infringe on anyone else who is trying to be happy as well. You also have every right to defend yourself and your rights with that gun, no matter if it is a criminal or your own government (i repeat myself)
    If you don't want to own but one gun, have at it. I will support you and defend your right and choice to do so. Don't belittle those who want more than one, for whatever reason they want. You may not see a need for it, but i do. Would you belittle someone for owning more that one car? Or more than one house? Or having more that one child?

    Bottom line, You have choices and i have choices. I wouldn't belittle you for how many guns you owned or how many tvs you had in your house, don't point a finger and wave a flag because i think its ok to have 100 guns, and 10000 rounds of ammo. Second, don't criticize this small group of Americans who want to be proactive in defending their freedoms. The majority of Americans would never be in a militia, but the majority of Americans would never join the military either. Should we shun the military? And because they are different, that is no reason to belittle them by comparing them to the KKK or a gang or cult. Those are the same tactics used by HItler against his enemies and it is not fair. You may not agree with them, but comparing them to something they are no way shape or form is low.

    I think if you looked into history, you would see the founders of this nation had a much different opinion than you do. If you wish to be enlightened, i would recommend you start with Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin. The things these "radical" groups today stand for were also very radical in the 1700's..........if you were a loyalist. I would also recommend you read H.R 45. I provided a link. If you look back in history, firearms registration leads to firearms confiscation, firearms confiscation leads to genocide. i hope this helps.

    December 9, 2009 at 9:28 pm |
  3. Jack

    The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Everyone keeps saying that Obama is going to take them away. Yet no one has provided a single of real evidence that he or any one in the government has put any effort in to doing that. Bottom line is everyone is entited to their opinion including me. And unlike some on this particular subject I dont feel the need the belittle for expressing their opinion. So instead of a intelligent conversation that may enlighten someone we end up having to defend ourselves from idiotic comments. I have said a million times that I'm not Anti Gun yet everytime I expresss my opinion someone is firing back "your anti gun". The right to have my own opinion needs to be defended

    December 9, 2009 at 8:14 am |
  4. RefreshTheTree

    And I quote: "A well regulated MILITIA being necessary to the security of a FREE state, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Whom do we need to defend ourselves against? A tyrannical government which no longer respects the rights of the people. Unlike what you stated the founding document that says we have a duty to rise up against the government in certain cases is the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. I quote again: "...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government..." The views of many of those militias, as well as the group I belong to: the Oath Keepers is there needs to be people prepared to defend against the federal government overstepping its bounds, and becoming tyrannical. They government has a lot of guns (many we are not allowed to own), W.M.D.s, tanks, etc, and years of ammo. Therefore, we would need the same to defend the people against such a thing, many guns and large stores of ammo is the best we can do. These people are maintaining what they believe is their duty to maintain, which is a well regulated militia. This does not refer to the regular standing army. My definition of patriot is someone who supports and defends the Constitution and the ideals the country was founded upon, simple. The government has stomped all over these rights, and is verging on becoming tyrannical. A sovereign citizen has the right to do whatever he/she wants so long as they do not harm another. Government control per democracy is akin to mob rule. I own many guns, and thousands of rounds of ammo because I think I MAY need them. No one, including the majority of the rest of the population has any right to tell me that I cannot since this is a Federal Constitutional Republic NOT a democracy. You don't understand the principles our country was founded upon according to what you wrote. You may not be representing yourself very well, but you refer to a document I doubt you have read (and fully expect you to tell me you have). Most Americans I would say have not, and they simply do not understand why all of these conservative Americans are up in arms. They assume racism, but they are wrong in most cases because we were just as angry at the Bush administration for ignoring the Constitution. Again I say that people seem to think it can’t happen here. I wonder if the German Jews thought that too.

    December 8, 2009 at 11:28 am |
  5. Jack

    My point is that I NOT AGAINST GUNS. I'm against someone owning 45 guns and a three year supply of ammo. No one need an arsenal to defend themselves. As far as Militias are concern, I see them for what they are A private, non-government force, not necessarily directly supported or sanctioned by its government. Or a Defense activity or service, to protect a community, its territory, property, and laws or A select militia is composed of a small, non-representative portion of the population often politicized. Thats three definitions for them that also can be used to define a gang, cult, hate group, religion. Whether you like them or hate them THEY All do what THEY believe is right and they dont NOT represent or have the same views as the majority of the population. And its my OPINION that a group that doesn't represent or share the same view as the majority is dangerous and unproductive. Especially when they are training with weapons. That indicates they are willing to force they views on others and kill if need be. Patroits should want whats best for the entire population.

    All militias, a gangs, cult, religions are not dangerous or racist in nature. All of they do not have the same objective. I HAVE contacted 12 militia groups and most are not afraid to admit that they dont not like having a black president. Most are against gun control of any sort. Most beleif that one person should be able to own 3000 guns of any kind and with a lifetime of ammo. That what I DISAGREE with. One man should only need no more than a couple of guns and month worth of ammo at most.

    I totally disagree with the idea that surrounding yourself with people of a certain view makes you have the same view. A strong confident person can surround himself with anyone and still stick to princples that he believes in. That what a Leader is!

    I was also called borderline anti-Constitutional. No where in the Constitution does it say that we have the right to bear an arsenal and years of ammo. No where does it say that i have the right to force my view on someone else. Nowhere does it say your a patroit for having a view that doesnt represent the majority of the population. What it does say is that we have a duty to fight injustice, we have duty to fight for our country as a whole and to fight for those who cant fight for themselves.
    A patriot is someone who , feels or voices expressions of patriotism, support for their country. Patriotism has had different meanings over time, and its meaning is highly dependent upon context, geography, and philosophy. So what you see as a patriot I may not. I believe patriotism was defined as devotion to humanity and beneficence. For example, providing charity, criticizing slavery, and denouncing excessive penal laws. I dont need to join a group and learn how to kill to feel patriotic. Saving a live is more patriotic than taking one. And if you must take a live it should be because your protecting citizens from harm and not because you dont like the color of their skin or because you THINK someone is going to taking your gun away.

    December 7, 2009 at 11:37 am |
  6. RefreshTheTree

    Additionally, after reading these comments it is clear that people who stand on the side of the right to bear arms have a LOT more factual and historical knowledge to back up their stance. Here is fact number one: the most terrible and large scale populace exterminations occured right after the populace was disarmed. Think it can't happen here? Are we not a nation of human beings? Don't kid yourself. You don't need to have a gun, but you should be thankful that there are people who choose to own them because if the sh#t ever really hit the fan I bet you will be the first to run for cover behind them.

    December 3, 2009 at 5:34 pm |
  7. RefreshTheTree

    It is people like these that may be needed to save all you people who drank the Koolaid from the increasingly opressive government. The fed aquires more power and the populace gets dumbed down to the point of idiocy and allow their freedoms to be plucked away one by one. The time to reign in this out of control federal government is now. Wake up before its too late.

    December 3, 2009 at 5:23 pm |
  8. Sean

    @ Jack

    Jack, I agree with you in that sense that there are ways for a 10 year old or anyone one to obtain a gun on the streets. I think instead of making more worthless laws that only punish the law-abiding, we need to enforce laws that we have. I don't think we can argue that a 10 year old can buy a gun at a legit gun store. Since you brought up drugs, i have to ask, do you think taking guns or making more laws would prevent 10 year olds from getting them?? Afterall, we spend 100s of billions of dollars on the war against drugs and we can't keep them out of our country, out of the pockets of kids much less out of our prisons. Do you think guns would be any different?? So really, it is a sad reality we have to face, no matter what, those 10 year old drug dealers will always get a gun.

    I don't think you are anti-gun, but you are borderline anti-Constitution. I still don't understand your fear of an individual or group of individuals owning 1 or 100 guns. Do you think that the more guns someone has the more prone they are to do harm to someone??

    I think it is unfair that you put militias in the same category as a gang or a "cult." What is a cult?? According to historians, at one point, Christianity was a "cult".....and they were slaughtered by Romans and other people because they were perceived as a threat. I can't think of any "cults" today that have done any harm to anyone, other than themselves. Those Hale-Bot comet guys and the ones that drank the kool-aid down in Africa. I don't think guns were involved. How are militias related to them at all??

    What have these militias done to be categorized the same as "Gangs?" When was the last time militias were going to schools and beating up or killing other kids? When was the last time you saw a militia man in a club throwing up signs wearing different colors to "represent?" When was the last time a militia did a drive by in a neighborhood? All these rappers that came out of Compton or other violent neighborhoods don't put out songs about running with the militia or militia violence in their neighborhood. Do you think the militias killed Tupac?? That solves that mystery.

    How are Militias hate groups?? I was looking for the Swaztikas and white hoods in that footage of the family and militia, couldn't see it. When was the last time the Militia marched down the streets yelling "White Power!!" or "Go home, Ni&&er!!" ???

    Jack, i understand your concerns of guns being in the wrong hands, but going after a militia because they feel alittle more strongly about the second amendment than you do is very wrong. I don't see any connection to the militia and all these hate groups and racists and nazis, and gangs or whatever you are trying to connect them to. It seems like you are just labeling.

    I do agree that President Obama has given us no reason to believe that he is going to take guns/ammo away from us, however, he has surrounded himself with some of the most anti-gun people i have ever seen. Eric Holder, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, every Czar that has been appointed. He is high fiveing Nancy Pelosi and Diane Fienstien. His whole cabinet is anti-gun. Say what you wanna say, but you don't surround yourself with chickens and come out quacking like a duck. Obama isn't going to put all these anti gun people around him, then come out and go against them.

    November 30, 2009 at 5:30 pm |
  9. JMZ

    Jack i understand what your saying. But the problem is still the same. using your example. nobody needs a car with 800 hp or an SUV to take their kids to work. but they still have them. and when an SUV or something like that in a robbery or hit and run, nobody is screaming "ban escalades" . So again. the second amendment was specifically created so the people have a way to overthrow the govt if needed. What you do not understand is the govt isnt comming right out and saying "gimmie yer guns" that would be suicide. But it seems you do not want to recognise the signs of whats going on.Govt says: Lets see we cant directly take the guns ..oh i know well make a law that says anyone can have a gun as long as we*wink wink* think they are"mentally competeant" to have one. cuz nobondy wants "evil crazy "people to have one hr 45 i believe. Kinda like GOVT says: ohh we will monitor speech because we want a "fair" view of things*wink wink*. They wittle away rights left and right and you will never notice til its too late and it wont matter because your used to having rights taken. Second there are fights going on all over. Washington DC ban, chicago ban etc. SO to say you dont know of any only means you never looked. Jack if you cant see te difference btw a guy shooting at ans to practice to defend his family, and a punk gangbanger doing a drive by and killing a 3 yr old on a tricycle? dude thats sad and wrong and i cant even begin to help you on that. If im relying on people that think that to protect me, my family, my country. I dont think so, and statements like thoes prove mineand the melitias points even more

    November 30, 2009 at 1:08 pm |
  10. jay s

    All these people have against the militia is what the media tells them.They believe it and never question what they are told. Many of these same people don't know the truth behind gun ownership,also in most cases they have never fired a gun.Hr are some facts for them
    more than 100 million people were murdered by their own government after they were disarmed.
    People in this country can Legally own a machine gun ,after they submit themselves to fingerprinting,a background check that can take more than 3 months to complete. These guns are not cheap and having to pay for ammo is not cheap either. In many cases these people spend 20 to 30 thousand dollars just to get the gun. And since 1934 there was only one crime committed with a legally owned machine gun. And that was committed by a police officer I think.
    I would suggest the the people slamming the militia based on what the splc and cnn have to say,you need to open your mind and contact a militia web site and talk to someone.Then make a judgement.

    November 25, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
  11. Jack

    For JMZ

    Hear we go again with this. Pretending something doesn't happen Well IT HAPPENS. Whether or not it helps your point it still happens. Chicago Illinois, Milwaukee WI kids kill other kids with gun they bought from selling drugs. It happens ALL the time.10 year old to 20 year old. If you're smart enough to type then you know what a machine gun is? I should have to explain it. As I said I'm not Anti-Gun. I own one. I'm Anti Stupid and a realist. I realize that I don't need a 100 gun and four years of ammo to protect my home and family. Gangs, Militia's, Vigilante's, and Cults all act and kill for a reason. You may or may not agree with their reason for doing so but in their mind there a reason they belief what they are doing is needed. I agree that it is the duty of every citizen to be vigilante but it's not the duty of a citizen to take the law into their own hands. We seem to love to say in the right hands this okay. Well in the wrong almost anything is dangerous. I work in health care. I have seen stapler used to have much harm as a gun. Let's stop trying to deflect and cover up things.

    Bottom line, Mercedes, Ford, GMC, Chevy, Dodge all make automobiles and you I both may disagree on who make the worst one and who makes the best. But in the end they are still automobiles.
    Gangs, Militia's, Vigilante's, Cults, and Hate Groups all in the end are fight for what THEY perceive is right. And still have been given ANY real, credible information that Obama is taking our guns away

    November 25, 2009 at 2:49 pm |
  12. JMZ

    Jack when has a 10 yr old been able to buy guns except from people who dont follow the Law. The problem with govt regulations is that it will inevitay result in taking away of that right. The millita do not hurt anyone, they do not rob, they do not kill for no reason thats how they are different jack come on. The millitia is the people protecting themselves for enemies foriegn and domestic andthat includes their own govt. Thats the reason they put that in there. not to protect against the brits or other countries, but to keep the peple in charge of the govt. Whats a machine gun jack? All anti gun people seem to want to use that as the basis. A machine gun in the right hands is no more evil than a musket. and as you can tell the only people this restrics from having ones is the people who obey the law not the criminal. Remember vigalante means ever vigilant. This is is the duty of every citizen, notjust the police, not ust the army. Be careful when you give away the right and responsibility of self protection.

    November 24, 2009 at 2:10 pm |
  13. Jack

    One of the main points of these "militia's" is that Obama is going to take guns away. Where is this legislation? When has he proposed a law to do this? I support Obama and I also support the right to bear arms. There no real evidence that Obama has an agenda to strip all people of their arms. Even thou I own a gun and support the right to have it, I don’t think that anyone has the right to bear an arsenal or machine guns. There has to be some regulation people. The regulation we have know is not effective. A ten year old can buy a gun right now.
    Militias are not a good idea. How is that any different from being a gang member? A Black Panther? Or Cult member? Or a vigilante? Or an extremist? All train, all recruit, all have the same basic concept for existing. All are the same but are called by names.

    November 24, 2009 at 11:43 am |
  14. LC

    When I was 19 yrs old, living in WY, I was out one night driving on a 2-lane HWY. It was late and very little traffic when suddenly I saw headlights approaching. As the vehicle passed, the driver slowed down, slammed on his breaks, and flipped a U-Turn. I saw him do this because I was looking in my rear view mirror. I reached over, grabbed my gun, and held it. As I feared, "HE" came up behind me very fast, and was beside me (his car was faster). He then tried to run me off the road. At this point I held up my gun and made sure he saw it. He did and sped off. That potentially saved my life, but most assuredly from whatever he had in mind after he had run me off the road. What would have happened if I didn't have my gun with me?

    Also in WY- There was a young woman raped and strangled, who walked the same route I had. The difference? I carried a loaded gun.

    For those against the right to bear arms? It is rare you don't change your minds if someone you love or you yourselves are faced with NOTHING to defend yourself and become victims of a violent crime.

    That said, I support our US Constitution and the Right to Bear Arms.

    November 20, 2009 at 9:40 pm |
  15. jay s

    There seems to be a question of "well regulated" When the original constitution was written well regulated meant that the militia drilled on a regular interval.The founders didn't want a standing army they want a force made up of we the people. the term for the militia of we the the people was changed when congress passed the "dick act in 1903" this made the national guard the the well regulated militia. And the reserve militia as the un-regulated militia.
    Now the question has been raised what the militia could be defending against.Look up the battle of Athens.The government that is corrupt doesn't have to be the federal.
    We have between 11 and 12 million illegal aliens in this country.That could be looked at as and invading army. And no I don't think they are all looking to hurt anyone,they are all still criminals. Lets look at even 1% of that number as gang members(ms13 for one). They are 90%+ all illegals and deal drugs etc. They are is all states all armed,what could they do if 200 or 300 of them decide to take over a town?A governor could call the state guard to stop them,can't be sure of that because they could be overseas. The militia maybe all a small town has until the government shows up. And don't say it can't happen,because it's happening along our southern boarder more than most people know.
    And don't forget that the militia also trains to help in an emergency situation such as floods and storms etc.
    And one last point,some here have said that militia members are not patriotic.You have no idea what you are talking about.These people lover their country and would spill their own blood to defend it if needed.
    Lee Miracle ,has a right to complain about the health care scam. The government DOES NOT have constitutional AUTHORITY to do it. And our grandchildren will be paying for that crap if it doesn't kill the economy first. They expect us to pay for ten years for 5 years worth of coverage Just how is that going to work?
    sorry for the rant.

    November 20, 2009 at 8:45 pm |
  16. Lee Miracle

    US Army veteran 11B 1985-1988. Been there. Done that. And the oath says "Lawful orders of the president"

    November 20, 2009 at 8:20 pm |
  17. R Staton

    Sean, I would take you up on your offer but I would have to have a job lined up to live in GB, If that happens ill be sure to let you know – and I dont mind high taxes, I wish President Obama would do a tax increase so he can help pay for the great programs he is trying to get passed. . Meanwhile look out the goverment is coming after you! get your gun...woooo booo!! So silly. Anyway nice chatting with you but its the weekend, time to have fun. Have a great life, and lighten up! 🙂 I'm outta here.

    November 20, 2009 at 5:45 pm |
  18. Sean

    Well said Jay S.

    November 20, 2009 at 5:26 pm |
  19. Sean

    @ R Staton

    Me, stupid?? Not when it comes to this. Many laws established in states, North Carolina fir example during the Jim Crow days were established by KKK affiliated law makers to ensure the "Negroes" didn't shoot back. Also back when we were established As a colony, "Negroes" were under no circumstances allowed to own arms. Sounds Racist to me, but I am the stupid one right? What does that make you? An unarmed man is a slave. You are very ignorant of US history and world history if you think I am afraid of "boogie men" from hitler, to Stalin, to Pol pot. All those leaders were anti gun and what dId they do to their own people??? They slaughtered them!!!! And who stood against them??? Certainly not a smart, anti gun individual like yourself. I am the stupid one??? I think not. The reason to have guns is to protect from my own leaders, not the Brits.

    If you wanna live in the UK, I'll buy your ticket. On the condition if you come back you go to jail. Hope you like high taxes and crappy health/dental care.

    November 20, 2009 at 12:20 pm |
  20. Sean

    @ Nancy in Michigan. I think you and alot of Americans misunderstand "well regulated" the founders didn't want a give controlled militia. That defeats the purpose. The militia answer to the people. If anyone controls them it is the state governer, not any Federal Authority except a time of war. "well regulated" was more toward drill, shooting and maintiang your marksmanship skills.

    November 20, 2009 at 12:04 pm |
  21. jay s

    Sarah Lascar, It's people like you who do not understand the constitution keep saying crap that has no basis in fact.
    "Sorry, one President, he won, he has the power, to lead. No one has the right to bear arms against his government." His government?It's Our government! He works for us! Congress has the power to control what the president. It's sad that they do not listen to the people who they are supposed to represent.
    "No one has the right to bear arms against his government" have you ever read the second amendment?Amendment II
    "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the
    right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed".Do you know why that was written? To give we the people a way to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government. It has nothing to do with hunting or anything else.
    "They are also recruiting ex military men, who by the nature of an army respond to the United States President, as the chief.
    Imagine some of these military guys and their new combat problems, being recruited to this militia?" Military members have a duty not to obey illegal orders period.Every thing that obama has pushed on us has been totally unconstitutional.Just look at the people that obama has surrounded himself with in the white house,Communist who think it's okay to take from the people who earn what they have to give itpeople who can't or won't earn anything for themselves.
    The militias are not having to recruit too hard,people are looking for them.Why is that? Could it be that the lie-beral commiecrats may try to take guns away ,yes it is.
    "Must there be another Ft. Hood disaster before anyone does something?
    Just what does FT.Hood have to do with this????????The bast##D who killed those people was a terrorist,he didn't belong to a militia.

    November 19, 2009 at 11:00 pm |
  22. Nancy in Michigan

    @Chris – LOL, you are a verrryy funny guy, you know that??

    FYI, we have guns in our home; more than one per person, in fact. Both of our children know how (and how NOT) to use them. We are ALL aware that, if you're going to point that gun at something living, it better be because you want it DEAD.

    My comments were directed toward those who feel that UNREGULATED, UNAUTHORIZED, so-called "militias" are a good idea. Frankly, we have guns in our home to protect us from THOSE PEOPLE. I'm more terrified of the UNREGULATED yokels around here than I will EVER be of my government (even with Bush in office, I wasn't THAT afraid of my government).

    As for the burqa? Yeah, I think I'd look pretty classy in one, if I were so inclined. I seriously doubt, however, with all the WELL-REGULATED armed forces this country possesses, that I'll ever be forced to wear one. But thanks for the concern!

    November 19, 2009 at 7:09 pm |
  23. Okie Jon

    Reading these posts, it becomes inherently clear those who have common sense, those who disagree yet acknowledge the right to opposing perspectives, and the grossly ignorant. The latter seems to be growing in number and are by far more dangerous to the founding fathers design than any modern militia. Sigh...

    November 19, 2009 at 6:53 pm |
  24. R Staton

    Sean, now that is a stupid comment, I am anti-gun so I am a racist? I don't know what imaginary forces you are so afraid of that are going to take over our precious country, boogie men? That is antiquated thinking. The Brits are not armed and i dont see them being taken over by anyone. In fact if I was able to move there i would.

    November 19, 2009 at 5:03 pm |
  25. Sean

    George Washington and all the other "right wing, extremist, white men angry at the government" didn't use free speech or limp wristed, liberal tactics to drive tyranny from this land........they got into militia and used firearms.

    Gun control and disarming the public has its roots from when the majority of law makers in certain states were members of the KKK. Disarm the black man, and the KKK didnt have to worry about getting shot back at. If you are Anti-gun, you are a racist!!!!

    November 19, 2009 at 10:45 am |
  26. Sean

    @ Sarah Lascar
    You need to read the Constitution before you say something else stupid. The whole point in having arms is to use them against an illegal, Tyrannical Government.

    November 19, 2009 at 10:37 am |
  27. CJV


    The absence of black asian, hispanics, immigrants (legal or illegal) and that of green little guys with weird eyes and antennas has been highlighted a couple of times...

    The spelling/grammar police came and went...

    The irony of this thread is lost on many... Postal clerk armed to the teeth and 'leading militia' as well as his family in pseudo military firing drills...

    Many here lose their time arguing that guns are good or bad, that there is a need for armed folks to protect democracy... How is the rest of the world doing it (protect democracy)?
    Only the US is doing that. It has not prevented politicians to run hammock, start wars and basically abuse the population. In fact the US is one of the country that has not evolved for the last 200 years when it comes to democracy. We cling to a constitution that has aged so much that it means nothing when it comes to 'pointed articles'.

    Senators represent States, fine. Congressmen represent people... In our dreams (or best nightmares). National 'democratic vote' is a sad joke as we do not vote but for a party and that vote can be overridden by the electoral college that can basically decide that we are way too stupid to elect someone they do not like...
    Yeah, the signs of a true democracy here.

    One tells a Canadian that they do not stand a chance if they are being invaded... By whom? The US? Martian? Deranged frenchmen?
    Seems to me that Canada has much less trouble with the rest of the world the US despite the lack of local loonies deluding themselves into being the 'ultimate defenders of democracy...

    Also how many folks here realize that during the creation of the US the population was small and potentially controlled by a few local folks who dictated everything to their 'vassals'?
    The use and threat of violence was a way to prevent abuse (ah!). Now if one local guy tries to do anything there is a very strong that he will be caught and thrown in jail and that w/o the use of a 'well armed and organized militia'.

    Now what?

    Let's see if this guy will 'go postal'. That would really put a twist into this 'thing'.

    November 19, 2009 at 9:19 am |
  28. Chris

    And, oh yeah, to Nancy the QUEEN OF SARCASM. You're really good at name calling, aren't you? Oohhh – you cut to the quick! Is that what you're going to use if and when we're attacked? That'll work!! LOL

    Just remember, there is a RIGHT way to wear a burka. I'm sure you'll look fashionable! But, of course, you won't be allowed to SAY anything – which, in YOUR case, would only be a blessing!

    Go and dangle THAT participle!!!!

    November 19, 2009 at 7:00 am |
  29. Chris

    I recently watched a program about the start of WWII from which I learned that, at the beginning of our involvement after the attack at Pearl Harbor, the majority of our new "soldiers" didn't know how to use weapons at all. It took intensive training to get these young men ready and I wonder how many died or were maimed during training because of this ignorance. And this was 50 years ago when this country was more rural than it is now and ,I suspect, more people hunted and had guns in their homes! We have to be truly helpless these days!! Why do some people think it is "crazy" to have a means to protect oneself and one's family? Why would you want to take away a right which was so important to America's founding fathers that it came second only to the freedom to speak out against tyranny? When you call for , yet another, law to limit our 2nd Amendment rights and call people with whom you disagree treasonous, remember our founding fathers were also traitors – to the king of England. Look around you at the world condition – don't you see corruption, greed, and violence ruining many countries from the heads of state on down? Do you want to be one of those countries because we had no arms to protect ourselves from a government gone wrong? Or would you like one of those countries to attack us when we are not prepared to defend ourselves? Are you so medicated or deluded that you think your freedoms are guaranteed for you without constant vigilance? Are you even UP on current affairs? I bet the militia are! Are some of these group extremists? Of course! There are crazies and fringe groups on all ends of the political spectrum and always have been. Bottom line is that there is STILL freedom in THIS country and we all must find our own way to uphold and guard those freedoms. You do it your way and leave others alone to do it theirs unless you are part of the "fundamental transformation" of this country and the trashing of its Constitution that is being attempted. Limit the freedoms of groups you don't like and you ultimately limit your own – get it?

    November 19, 2009 at 6:51 am |
  30. LC

    I grew up with multiple guns, all loaded, in our home. There were six children and guess how many accidents???? ZERO

    The over-used statement applies here, "Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE do." So do many other weapons made by choice, like mentioned before, a kitchen knife, and the list goes on.

    My only input is this- when children are properly taught firearm safety, demonstrated the lethal results they can have, and further taught proper respect for firearms? It is very rare you read about these children having accidents due to playing with guns. Far more, it is common you read about children, and adults, not properly educated in firearm safety involved in accidents, often lethal due to ignorance.

    With whom are you safer? The informed or the ignorant? Me, I will choose the informed, who are my peers.

    November 19, 2009 at 5:26 am |
  31. Frankie

    As far back as I can remember, at least a couple decades, the Southern Michigan Volunteer Militia has existed in one form or another. It isn't like this is a sudden thing that has begun to appear. Patriots don't become Patriots overnight. It is part of who they are. Slapping a 'Support the Troops' sticker on your minivan doesn't mean you are a Patriot.

    As far as I'm concerned these people are the best kinds of citizens and I'd prefer to know they do what they do. The US is in a crisis that most people shield their eyes from. There is a place for more sheepdogs in this nation of sheep.

    Show me an unhappy child in this family. Show me even the slightest measure of racism in what was reported. Show me where an instance of anti-government sentiment was portrayed. I didn't see it. I saw a person that loves his country, is concerned about his family, and is doing his best to preserve their LIBERTY.

    I'd rather see people being active and getting prepared than to watch a video of armchair commandos talk about 'what they should do'. DO SOMETHING PEOPLE!

    November 18, 2009 at 6:39 pm |
  32. James

    Save us SETH !! The militias are the root of all evil..All 25 of them. They are such a big threat to everyone. I just know that they want to take over the US and push their racist klan doctrine on us. We are all in such peril. HELP HELP...
    Thank GOD we have the gay community, Bernie Madoff, Greenspan, Goldman Sachs, Chicago School Board President, Isreal, Acorn, MTV, BET, Baba WaWa, Bernake, Summers, and the abortionists out there making the world safe for democracy. We can all sleep safely with you watching our back. Recovery is JUST around the corner.
    First thing I'm doing is buying some credit swaps and mortgage backed securities to get things going again.

    November 18, 2009 at 4:05 pm |
  33. Otter

    Amazing. So many people here, totally in the dark. HB45 is being discussed in the Senate. This bill would make it mandatory to register and pay a tax on every privately owned firearm in the U.S.. In other words, gun registration. History has proven that every time guns have been required to be registered, confiscation follows. Let's say HB45 passes and becomes law. People who don't believe in the registration of firearms refuse to register their weapons. The government then checks the forms required to be kept by licensed firearm dealers, and then checks their list of registered firearms. Joe Blow didn't register his gun. The government now sends out the ATF SWAT team to arrest and confiscate Joe Blows guns. Joe, who yesterday was a law abiding citizen, is now a criminal. Joe Blow lost his guns today, the others who registered their guns will loose theirs tomorrow. This is how it works. This is what the Founding Fathers warned us about and told us to overthrow the government if it became too corrupt. Who's going to stop the government? The militias are. Their numbers may be small now, but could grow into millions if necessary Many militia members are ex-military. They know how to conduct a revolution. They are a nessessity in a free society to ensure our freedoms from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

    November 18, 2009 at 3:50 pm |
  34. Sarah Lascar

    This is a very disturbing piece. "These men have guns to get their
    mail" as was reported earlier.
    Sorry, one President, he won, he has the power, to lead. No one has the right to bear arms against his government. He was elected by a majority. This is no joke, but an alarm waiting for another disaster, unless someone alerts these groups, they are not patriotic. They are carrying guns, for protection of Whom? This is not the wild west.
    They are also recruiting ex military men, who by the nature of an army respond to the United States President, as the chief.
    Imagine some of these military guys and their new combat problems, being recruited to this militia?

    Must there be another Ft. Hood disaster before anyone does something?
    CNN exposed this leader, now do something to stop his recruitment. I was under the impression that there were four armed services, navy, air force, etc. with reserves in each.

    Another militia is against the constitution.

    There was a reason Texas was not a nation for very long.

    One President, he won, like it or not.

    November 18, 2009 at 2:33 pm |
  35. Gettinolder

    I see the majority of posters here support this particular militia in Michigan. It is with glee that I would like to point out this is only one of many in this great state, which btw, has one of the largest Sunni Muslim populations within these United States.

    And even better news is that there are many, many more militias in these United States, in practically every state of the Union!

    CNN, for a "liberal" newsource, I applaud your coverage of this great movement! And being's as your title asks the question, myself, along with the powerful majority, answer; Patriots!

    Liberal wienies, you have nothing to be afraid of here, move along now and go hug a tree.

    November 18, 2009 at 1:06 pm |
  36. jay s

    First of all to the people who think all militias are the kkk or like the kkk ,you do not know what you are talking about. True patriots do not care about the color of someones skin etc.
    Then we have the comments that these people are playing army. Go back and study you American history. The militia was something that all citizens participated in. In fact it would be in many cases a community event where the wives would prepare food and such.
    Some questions to those who say that we do not need a militia,If there was an earthquake,would you not help if you could?If there was a lost child would you help find them?Well If the answer is yes ,you are the militia as much as the people who are prepare to take up arms to defend their neighbors and country.
    How many people here know what the second amendment is about in the first place?I will give you a hint,it's not about hunting.It was to give we the people the power to combat a tyrannical government. The second amendment does not give us anything,It states that we have that right when we are born,the same way as the first amendment states we have the right to free speech.And while we are talking about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights if more people in this country would take the time to read them they would find that most of what obama and bush and the ones before them for over the last 150 years have violated the constitution many times. and the same thing can be said about congress as well.
    Now lets look at the claims that this is because of obama. That is just plain incorrect. These patriots didn't like the way things were going when bush was in office.And if you looked back at our countries history you might see that as well.
    Now the comment about asking if it was illegal that children be exposed to guns like that? Well When my kids were old enough to hold up a .22 i took them out to learn the correct way to handle a gun. I also taught them to treat all guns as if they were loaded and to tell an adult if they ever find one.I also secured them when them when not in use in a steel gun safe. So teach them early,take the mystery away. And another benefit,it is a good way to spend time with your kids.

    November 18, 2009 at 12:38 pm |
  37. Seth

    Interesting to note that the second amendment has been bandied about here. "A well regulated militia..." These groups eschew government interference with their activities. If the government has no role in the formation/operation of a militia, then who has the power to regulate these groups? When states step in to regulate them, these groups get dangerously agitated. That does not sound well regulated.

    With such a long history of American militias being tied directly to religious and racist ideologies and extreme acts of violence against US citizens whose political views differed from their own, it's little wonder that they have a very bad reputation among Americans. Perhaps most frightening to the average citizen is the impression that these groups appear to reserve the right to act unilaterally when they foresee a problem occurring. Their personal definition of militia (which has little bearing on the actual meaning of the word) effectively allows them to act in violation of the intent of The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878; they feel they have the right, as a paramilitary organization, to act as a military force within US borders during times of crisis (as nebuluously defined by their leadership).

    For all these reasons, the average American, whom one assumes they would be serving in a time of crisis, is rightly terrified of them and the implication of their very existence. The same holds true for militias worldwide; the Basij in Iran walk the streets beating people who don't conform to their own extreme concept of religion. The Ganjaweed militias of the Darfur region actively commit genocide on behalf of their beliefs. Few other nations tolerate private armies on their soil to the same degree that the US does, and in most cases those nations actively use them to terrify their own populace.

    Militias in the United States are an anachronism that by all rights should be "well regulated" right out of extremism.

    November 18, 2009 at 12:20 pm |
  38. James

    Oh my God !! The militia is after the minorities !!! Watch out everyone; the white guys are coming !! RACE WARS !!! Next thing you know they will take away our TV shows about Manhatten metro sexuals and Bill Maher's HBO show !! OMG they kidnapped the cast from "The View" and SNL.. Next target is our Starbucks coffee shop.. These gun toten maniacs are going to take over everything and make us work for a living !!

    November 18, 2009 at 12:15 pm |
  39. Sean

    You Commie, Liberal, Anit-Gun, Anti-Constitution folks never fail to amaze me. Take these peoples guns?? Round them up and send them to Alaska?? Have the FBI watch them?? This is exactly how Tyranny grabs hold of a "free" people. Can i ask if anyone in history ever disarmed their own people?? Rounded them up and took them far away?? Had govt agencies monitor them?? I can't think of any except HITLER, STALIN, POLPOT!!!!!???? HELLO!!!!???? Yet you would want to do that to your own people?? You would stand by and let the government do that to people who are simply doing what the Constitution says all of us should be doing. Unbelievable.

    November 18, 2009 at 11:58 am |
  40. Auric

    Do you teach your kids how to use sharp knives, start fires, or drive a car? Used incorrectly these things can be very dangerous. NOT teaching kids how to use firearms is the real danger.

    November 18, 2009 at 11:49 am |
  41. Johannes Maximilian Lindmeier

    I believe in the Constitution of the United States of America and the Amendments and Articles here by in. America has always had Militia, The United States Marine Corps, United States Navey, and in the beginning the Continental Army. Militia men and Minute Men fought off The British in the past and held off the Red Coats till the main military Forces arrived. They were almost like todays U.S. Navey SEAL'S, Marine Forced Recon, and Army Special Forces. These men ARE PATRIOTS.

    The Right to Bare Arms was given to the people to defend and protect livestock and property. It was also given here in and therefor by the people to defend the Continent of America and the States there by in from Invasion should the military forces of America fail. It is also the right of the people to overthrow Political Leaders and those who threaten the Constitution of the United States of America. The Founding Fathers also gave us these rights to change our government should a Republic fail. Thats right America is a Republic not a Democracey. Remember that when you say the Pledge of Allegiance and correct people who say otherwise.

    God Bless America

    November 18, 2009 at 11:29 am |
  42. Ty

    Bush was the conservative "Trojan Horse". Wrapping himself in the 2nd Amendment yet stating that he would sign an assualt weapons ban if it reached his desk. He (unconstitutionally) signed executive orders suspending habeas Corpus as well as the posse comitatas Act. Obama now stands on the previous administrations criminal actions, being elected in the hopes of repealing much of what took place in the last 8 years. We were duped with Bush. We are being duped now with Obama. They are owned by Wall St., the global elite and bankers. And the destruction of the dollar and the forced agenda of a North American Union is drawing near. The Militia is "the people". Constitutionally literate Americans of every stripe. Some of us are awake now. Others will wake up later with the latter suffering the most human loss as they failed to see the truth and trust the very system that is seeking to leave them for dead. Good luck.

    November 18, 2009 at 10:54 am |
  43. James

    The scared liberal sound like this concerning militias....

    Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
    Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
    Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!
    Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

    HELP HELP HELP !!!!!!!

    November 18, 2009 at 10:52 am |
  44. James

    Listen to poor little frightened Jack...the sky is falling and 15 or so white guys are going to be the end of us all....Help us please !!! We're all going to die !!...He sounds like Charles Manson and "Helter Skelter" with his race war prediction.
    Get a room.


    November 18, 2009 at 10:41 am |
  45. MT


    You may not see minorities in the video, because its tough to be a contributing member of ANYTHING when you are waiting for your government handout.

    Lets see the minorities are the majority in loan defaults.

    minorities are the majority in the unemployment and welfars lines

    Yet minorities have better access to secondary education (financial aid) better rights as far as hiring into union placement (if they choose to work)

    yet minorities are the very first to complain about the lot in life they have been given and explain the many ways they have been wronged.

    November 18, 2009 at 10:38 am |
  46. R. Staton

    I think these are dangerous exstremists. I wish the goverment would take their guns and all guns away (except police and military) and repeal the 2nd amendment. I know this won't happen but in a perfect word it would be nice. I think any military person who takes this oath should be court martialed. As far as the guy who thinks he has to carry a gun to his mailbox, what is he afraid of? Letter Bombs? I will never carry or use a gun and I feel pretty safe here in Arizona, although there are a lot of gun nuts here.

    November 18, 2009 at 10:33 am |
  47. MT

    shelleyin montreal....

    Rest is about all Candians do!

    Canada was founded by French Rifle Droppers!

    Your country has never defended anything ever or stood their ground for anything! Your entire country RESTS while others defends your borders.

    You can keep your way of life..... until someone comes to take it away

    November 18, 2009 at 10:30 am |
  48. Christopher Meyer

    You know, in older societies, training children the the ways of combat was seen as a requirement, even honorable. It is the weak minded, weak willed liberals that try to hang peace on a higher spoke than war, but war is constant, peace is not. These parents are doing well to teach their children now, and to teach them the right way, how to use and take care of firearms. Kids that grow up this way are generally smarter and safer with a gun in their hands than the average joe who learns later in life.
    When I have kids, this will be the way I teach them.

    November 18, 2009 at 9:58 am |
  49. Vicky Bevis

    Black! We have a black President? And who's Glenn Beck? And Sean Hanity? Guess I better get my head out of books & start watching television. Apparently my "attitude" needs adjusting.

    November 18, 2009 at 9:51 am |
  50. Jack

    I believe these people to be extremist. I have not seen any real evidence that they are fighting for a real purpose. Take a look at the people in these groups. Mostly white males are in these groups. What are they really training for. The Government is planning an assault on white males. The truth is these are hate mongers. Klan members in camo. They are Patriots to a old era filled with rasim and hate. The represent the cancer thats keeps this country divided. They are going to be the cause of a war that ends up being a battle of the races. They are not different or no better than the terrorist we are at war with now. Mark my words the government will not be their target, it will be the minorities!

    November 18, 2009 at 9:45 am |
  51. Jonathan

    "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. ... Every man who parrots the cry of “stand by the President” without adding the proviso “so far as he serves the Republic” takes an attitude as essentially unmanly as that of any Stuart royalist who championed the doctrine that the King could do no wrong. No self-respecting and intelligent free man could take such an attitude."
    - Theodore Roosevelt
    (1858-1919) 26th US President

    November 18, 2009 at 9:40 am |
  52. Nancy in Michigan


    "I have two children also. They have shot my weapons as well as my wife."

    WOW. They shot your weapons AND your wife?? I am sorry for the damage your children inflicted upon your wife. Is she going to survive? <- sarcasm

    I'll just bet you think you have the right to walk around "baring" your arms too, don't you? Please, don't... there's nothing more offensive than seeing all those bare arms all over the place, especially the ones with tattoos and such. <- more sarcasm

    The incredible ignorance shown by the majority of the so-called "patriots" in response to this issue leads me to believe that I should start forming my own militia to guard against it. Dangling participles? You're goin' DOWN!! <-tons of sarcasm


    November 18, 2009 at 9:38 am |
  53. Mike

    Jim –
    Before you report on this again please go read "A Nation of Sheep" by Judge Andrew Napolitano. He wrote it during the Bush years to draw attention to the changes in US laws that give the President sweeping power over the rest of the government.

    It's not about Obama. It's not about "we think Obama is going to ______". It's that we currently have the laws in place that have allowed leaders to commit horrific acts throughout history, a society that ignores the potential of those laws, and no checks on those laws.

    These people are Patriots. I'm not one of them, don't know any of them, but I'm glad they've taken the time to understand the issue and not sit idle as it continues to develop.

    November 18, 2009 at 9:21 am |
  54. david


    November 18, 2009 at 9:02 am |
  55. Ben

    Let me ask those so called Extremlists, where were you guys when Bush was lying to the Amercan People and Our Patriots about the invasion and Occupation of Iraq, that had absolutely NOTHING TO DO with the Attacks on 9/11 ..Where were these people, when Bush pushed through the All american communist Patriot Act..Where were these Guys, when Bush left those helpless African American people on their Own, when that HUGE Hurricane Katrina crushed their Homes, and left people to Die in this GREAT USA.. Where were there so called Patriots when Bush created and was Torturing suspected Terrorists, and holding them without charges or even a trial for 7 yrs..Most of them were picked up off the streets of Iraq, just to say Ohh we caught some Iraqi Terrorists..You know the Truth is, that there were No Terrorists in Iraq, until the US Invaded a country with no reason, but to Occupy, and impose Bush's democracy on those Iraqi People, that dont want our Democracy to start with.. The Republicans are now talking about oh so much spending by the Democrats, well, Bush went into Two Wars, pushed through a 1.8 Trillion Dollar unfunded liability on the american people, with Tax Cuts for the Rich, including himself and his high-class friends, and also 1.2 Trillion dollar medicare bill , that wasnt paid for and was pushed over to Obama our new president to pay for, so where were you guys when Bush was screwing the American people out of their own Tax Money.. So, Where you so called Patriots then, and why is President Obama'a Picture on those Magazines they publish in that Militia, if it wasnt because he is an African American..The Only detention centers that will ever be built in this country, is in your Minds, and thats not saying too much for these so called patriots.. They are just mad because we have a Black President, and they are too much cowards to admit that is exactly what it is ALL ABOUT..If you guys are man enough to speak out, You should be Man enough to admit, that your Domestic Extremists, or right-wing idiots, that dont have the compassion to stand up for Us, the American people, you want to cause hatred, and drive apart our citizens, and if your not careful, you will soon see what that kind of Glen Beck ideology brings you, and when that happens, Glen Beck will be the One to pay for his big mouth and causing the american people to rise up and go against their Own Country..Obama, has not done anything to cause this, and if Glen Beck keeps pushing folks, he will soon see what the outcome of pushing the other side brings..Maybe he will cry to his mother when the other side calls him out..His mouth and Body can not cash that kind of check believe me.. from one brother to another, be careful what you wish for people.. You may get what you ask for..and mush more.. I pray that we will all come together and stop this kind of Hatred before things get too far out of hand.. Stand up for your Country, and stop the Hatred..

    November 18, 2009 at 8:56 am |
  56. Donna

    Our fore-parents were extremists, we know this and we shouldn't deny it.
    The question for these extremists would be 'do you intend to build or only destroy'?
    The wise people who created this country intended to build – their desire was to build something new, not simply rail against what they don't like. Let's get real and stop comparing these racist, bigoted, narrow minded people with some of the brightest minds who founded our country.

    November 18, 2009 at 8:45 am |
  57. Ray Garrison

    "Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Remember those words? Why is the choice between patriot and extremist, as if those are opposing viewpoints? What are the extreme patriots, as I take these people to be? And the concept that the fact that Obama is black is somehow related to people being upset with increasing Government control and fighting back against it is simply ridiculous.

    November 18, 2009 at 8:44 am |
  58. Nancy

    These radicals are passing on the same hatred to their children that the parents of suicide bombers pass on to their children. Though evidently woefully under-educated, they at least recognized that the white sheets of the KKK are frowned upon, but, make no mistake, they just traded the sheets for cute little matching "camo" outfits... and their burning crosses for AK-47's.

    November 18, 2009 at 8:42 am |
  59. russ

    Today on your program regarding the Para military groups. The past tactics of the democratic party on issues of gun control, bail outs, health care, etc. We need these groups to keep a handle on our Government. It goes back to a quote that I love my Country, but fear my Government.

    November 18, 2009 at 8:15 am |
  60. Rebel Cry

    I am impressed that you do a pretty fair story about these "right wing" groups compared to the more opinionated way FOX covers "left wing" groups.
    Your statement that Obama actually inherited many of the issues that motivate the fears and principals of a group like the Oath Takers is true. Presidents as far back as Abraham Lincoln are guilty of breaking their contracts with the constitution by abusing the powers of the office or hindering the constitutional powers of the states and people. It never mattered whether they were Republican or Democrat. Obama did indeed come into office following an administration of a patriot act, unconstitutional wars, and very unconstitutional bailouts.
    Nevertheless, if little has changed since Bush, the fault is all Obama's. Two wars continue, 2009 brought more bailouts, and the Patriot Act, as far as I know still lives.
    I offer a rebel yell to these patriot groups. And again, you are right, these movements are not inspired by racism. Rather, I believe they are inspired by a reckless government disconnected from the states and people. A mad force that seems to be out of its mind and out of our control.
    If Americans had a crystal ball in November of 08 Congressman Ron Paul would surely have become the first write in president in history.

    November 18, 2009 at 8:12 am |
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